Should we rush a Library in Khatovar?

[Justus II]

As discussed in the "Should We Revolt" thread,
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showth...threadid=21567
we need to determine if we are going to rush any improvements before we switch our government. After analyzing all the cities that need cultural improvements, I recommend two to have libraries rushed in them before we begin the revolt, Boston and Khatovar. I have posted two seperate polls to keep any confusion from people who might want to rush one or the other, and to keep the choices simple.

The reasons I recommend Khatovar are as follows:

It would take it 12-18 turns to build a Library on its own, even if we switched now.

It currently produces more food than shields, meaning it could replace the population quickly.

By building the Library now, we can at least let the anarchy time work for us by making the library 90 years older when it ends.

Also, the anarchy would be 7 fewer turns of unhappiness taken off the clock.

It is on our southern border, and would expand to fill in a large bulge in our frontiers that could be used by others to build cities.

Eyrei is running a poll on how soon to start the revolution, and so we will need votes on this one before then. The goal would be to have our answers before the next turn chat Thursday.

[eyrei]

I certainly support rushing a cultural improvement in Khatovar prior to the revolt. However, if Khatovar will have produced 21+ shields before the revolt, we should rush a temple instead of a library, as it will actually counter the unhappiness and will be a more efficient use of forced labor. Will someone who is not at work please check this?

[chiefpaco]

Justus (or someone else is ok too). Can you give the cost of the rush? How many citizens is it? Can you do it for each rush job you propose? I can not check because I am running 1.21 & they changed the citizen costs.

[Justus II]

In each case, the rush will only cost one citizen for a library. Khatovar only has 4 shields built up towards the settler, so I still recommend the library, a temple would cost 2 citizens.

[eyrei]

Originally posted by Justus II
In each case, the rush will only cost one citizen for a library. Khatovar only has 4 shields built up towards the settler, so I still recommend the library, a temple would cost 2 citizens.

Agreed. Should this poll indicate support for a rush of a library, it should be carried out immediately to be most efficient. Then it can start on a settler again.

[donsig]

We treat our gold better than we treat our citizens. Anyone care to put their whips down long enough to figure out how much gold a citizen is worth?

Let's see. At 4 gold/shield a citizen that can be turned into 20 shields is equal to 80 gold.

This type of 'accounting' is barbaric.

[Cyc]

I hear ya, Donsig. BTW, congrats on the Domestic Deputy post. Khatovar is primed for a rushed library. As long as the powers that be keep Khatovar on growth instead of production, it will recooperate quickly. Even with following the library with a settler, which we need (even tho it will set the pop back down again), Eyrie has stated in two posts (I believe it was two) that Khatovar will get a temple after the settler (immediately after). I think with a library and a temple in the next 3 building queues, the citizens will quickly forget the harshness with which these improvements were brought about. Of Course if they don't get their temple after the settler, the unholy tides of the anguished may rise up again...

[donsig]

Agreed. Should this poll indicate support for a rush of a library, it should be carried out immediately to be most efficient. Then it can start on a settler again.

So does this mean these polls should only be binding if they concur with your chosen policies eyrei?

Join Save our Citizens now!

[Civanator]

yes we should rush it, w can use the science boost

[Immortal]

So does this mean these polls should only be binding if they concur with your chosen policies eyrei?

I don't think that's what he meant Donsig, I think he simply wanted to get the library built quickly so if we go into revolution, the libraries will be complete.

[donsig]

I don't think that's what he meant Donsig, I think he simply wanted to get the library built quickly so if we go into revolution, the libraries will be complete.

Yeah, I know but I had to get that question in somewhere!

yes we should rush it, w can use the science boost

But, but, but, but, but don't we have the Great Library?

[Immortal]

But, but, but, but, but don't we have the Great Library?

That, Donsig, is an excellent question, do we even need a science rate right now?

[chiefpaco]

Originally posted by donsig


Yeah, I know but I had to get that question in somewhere!
But, but, but, but, but don't we have the Great Library?

Donsig. Rushing a Library will ensure we gain culture even during our anarchy period. If we choose not to rush, & revolt, a library will take 12-18 turns to build, as Justus stated, + the time under anarchy (4-8 turns more). Either way, we will expand our borders some 16-20 turns sooner and achieve a double-culture bonus sooner as well.

Our Great Library will also expire. A good chance of so by the time the library will be built. I see many benefits too.

Lastly, we have 4 luxuries and military police. We are very capable of making our citizens forget how hard they worked.

[donsig]

Donsig. Rushing a Library will ensure we gain culture even during our anarchy period. If we choose not to rush, & revolt, a library will take 12-18 turns to build, as Justus stated, + the time under anarchy (4-8 turns more). Either way, we will expand our borders some 16-20 turns sooner and achieve a double-culture bonus sooner as well.

And just what, pray tell, is so darned important about expanding our borders 20 turns sooner? Why is it so pressing to build these libraries now and not a hundred years from now? Does our culture victory hinge on this?

The library doesn't have to take 12-18 turns to build if we choose not to rush and revolt. As soon as we install a monarchy we can use gold to rush the thing.

[chiefpaco]

Expanding in itself is not critical. Nor are any of the bonuses. But, I think there are enough bonuses, when added together, to make it an attractive option.

Expanded land means more options to work for our citizens. It also will further restrict enemy movement and settlement options. It will also mean we own more land & therefore power that will have to be respected by our opponents. Cultural bonuses add to our cultural value, meaning it is harder for cities to revolt against us.

I respect your opinion too. I see where you are coming from. I just wanted to add some more bonuses maybe people hadn't considered. I apologize for putting your name in there, because while I wanted to reply to you, I mainly wanted to state some additional benefits.

Edit: I first thought this:
Using gold will not be cheap. 1 shield costs 8 gold. If we could buy it now, we would be 36 shields away. 36*8 = 288 gold. I'm not sure we want to place that much value on 1 library.

But, I double-checked, & found I was wrong. 1 shield actually costs 4 gold. Therefore, the cost is 144 gold. That is your current library value.

[donsig]

There is no need to apologize - I was not offended chiefpaco!

I guess my math was off in the other thread. I thought a citizen was equal to 20 shields and a shield was equal to 4 gold. If it's 40 shields/citizen and 8 gold/shield then a citizen = 40*8 gold = 320 gold. Geez, we should sell all our citizens!

It's a shame though that 288 gold is more valuable than the library but the library is more valuable than a citizen. Seems like it should all the the other way round.

I still haven't heard any pressing need to rush these libraries. Yes, it would be advantageous and efficient but isn't there more to life than that?

[chiefpaco]

Now I need to apologize. You are right about the 4-1. I was confused between "hurry" and "wealth".

So, the cost would be 144 gold. I will edit the first post, so as to not be confusing.

[Justus II]

Well, I can see that these polls sparked a spirited debate, which is what I expected. Did not mean to start off my new term in controversy, although I have been arguing for this point for a while. Also, just to set the record straight, this was my poll, and my recommendation, not Eryei's, although I believe he agrees with my point of view.

From the "accounting" standpoint, the final example you presented is correct, since we are playing 1.17, each population rushed is worth 40 shields, (or 36 here since we already have 4 accumulated), x4 gold each would be 144. But not only does it save us 144 gold, it also completes it a century or two earlier, due to the upcoming anarchy. That is 10-20% of the time it takes to hit the bonus. Also, as I tried to point out, I only recommended rushing in a couple of cities that a. had more food growth than shield production, and b. would benefit from the expanded borders. In Khatovar's case, it will help to fill in gaps along our southern boundary, that will reserve space for us to build cities later.

From the "barbaric" standpoint, there are several ways to look at it. Razing cities in war is barbaric also, but it happens, sometimes without our control. Starving a city down after capturing it can be barbaric, and again, sometimes it is out of our control, but sometimes it would be the best strategy. Building a settler (2 pop) to found a city (1 pop) costs population also. But they are part of the game, and I think we have to make the best decision for the nation as a whole. It would be easier if the game let you choose either method (pop or gold), but it doesn't.

Anyway, I knew this would be a controversial issue, and that is why I made the polls, although I am not sure whether they are required or not, I felt I needed to get the will of the people here.
I hope everyone realizes that is what this game is about, and nothing should be taken personally.

[Cyc]

Justus II/Donsig - Please see my last reply in "Should we revolt..."

[eyrei]

I do not want to have to spend our entire treasury rushing libraries that we could have already had because we did not rush them when we had the chance. If you notice, all three of these proposed rushes are in cities that have almost no production and plenty of population.

<Roleplaying> The people of the cities of Boston and Chicago continue to deny their allegiance to the Phoenatican empire by refusing to work (waste) and attempting to revive the culture of America. This cannot be tolerated as these cities rest on prime land that will benefit the empire when actually worked. These dissenters should be forced into labor to construct monuments to the greatness of Phoenatica, and replaced in the fields by more loyal, natural born citizens. </roleplaying>