Tough to be American ??

[danfishinman]

Spent the past week as Roosevelt at the Noble level and keep getting left behind because i spend too much time getting real estate before its all gone or getting swamped because i spend all my time in research ane cant establish more than 3 or 4 cities . Is being American a disadvantage ?

Dan

[pigswill]

Welcome to the forum .

No. You probably just need more practice.

[svv]

There's no particular disadvantage. Their traits aren't the ones I would pick, and their UU sucks, but that's true for a lot of 'em.

[Gaius Octavius]

Take a lesson from early American colonialism: what land you can't get through settling, get through Manifest Destiny.

[OTAKUjbski]

At the Noble level, it's possible to win with no UU, no BB and no leadership traits. About the time you hit Emperor, though, you start needing everything you can scrounge up.

3 or 4 cities is actually a good start pre-CoL. About the time you get CoL, you need to double that number -- either by venturing into the frontier or into your neighbor's yard.

[bardolph]

I'd say that Washington is a good deal stronger than Roosevelt.

[danfishinman]

Originally Posted by OTAKUjbski

At the Noble level, it's possible to win with no UU, no BB and no leadership traits. About the time you hit Emperor, though, you start needing everything you can scrounge up.

3 or 4 cities is actually a good start pre-CoL. About the time you get CoL, you need to double that number -- either by venturing into the frontier or into your neighbor's yard.

ok .. I'll bite... what the heck does "CoL" stand for ?

[Sryth]

CoL= Code of laws (I would assume)

Going with what bardolph said, I also think Washington is more powerful then Roosevelt. It might just be me, but I love the extra that Washington comes with.

[axident]

Originally Posted by danfishinman

Spent the past week as Roosevelt at the Noble level and keep getting left behind because i spend too much time getting real estate before its all gone or getting swamped because i spend all my time in research ane cant establish more than 3 or 4 cities . Is being American a disadvantage ?

Dan

My highest-scoring Prince game ever was on a standard fractal map/normal speed Roosevelt game. Completely torched the AI. At Noble difficulty, you can probably monopolize the wonders and grow massive numbers of great people with just Industrious. Add in some stone and marble and you'll run away with that. Get Code of Laws and Currency around the time that you plan to expand by conquest or peacefully.

[vormuir]

Being American is OK. Roosevelt is neither the best nor the worst of the leaders.

Noble level is very winnable, especially if you hang around here. Prince is harder, Monarch is much harder. Higher than Monarch you need to be a natural talent or very dedicated to the game.

If you're playing "vanilla" Civ (without the Warlords expansion), then Roosevelt starts with Fishing and Agriculture and is Industrious and Organized.

Think a moment about how those can be leveraged for you.

-- Agriculture is a good starting tech, it lets you build farms early. Farms are good. Build a Worker early in the game -- as your second or third build, maybe after a Warrior -- and start farming, to grow your cities faster.

-- Industrious lets you build Wonders faster. Watch for technologies that will let you build Wonders. For instance, Meditation lets you build Stonehenge, Priesthood gives you the Oracle, and so forth. Plan ahead a little -- "I know I want to build the Pyramids, so I will pursue Masonry".

-- Watch for Marble and Stone, which let you build certain wonders faster. If you are Industrious AND you have Stone, you will build the Pyramids at 150% speed. That means, for instance, 20 turns instead of 50.

This means you will beat the AI civs to wonders. You may not get all the wonders, but if you pay attention you can get all the ones you really want.

-- Organized gives you cheaper civics. You won't notice this until you play a civ that isn't Organized and then you'll be all "wait, where is all my money going"?

-- Organized also gives you cheap Lighthouses and Courthouses. Lighthouses make it worth your while to use sea tiles. (Fishing makes it possible, but not worth bothering usually.) Courthouses cut your maintenance costs, which is no big deal when you have a small empire (3 or 4 cities) but which rapidly becomes TOTALLY VITAL if you want to expand past 6 cities without your empire collapsing.

(If you played earlier versions of Civ, this is a big change. Basically you cannot support a huge empire without certain key techs, most notable Code of Laws and Currency.)

If you play cleverly you can leverage these traits against each other. For instance, building a Lighthouse means you can build the Great Lighthouse. Hey, guess what -- the Lighthouse is cheap for you (Organized trait) and so is the Great Lighthouse (Industrious trait). So this is a natural.

Now, the Great Lighthouse gives you extra trade routes in your coastal cities, so leverage it by meeting lots of civs and establishing Open Borders agreements with them. Later in the game, pile on by building Harbors, which increase your trade route income.

If you're playing at Noble, here's a simple algorithm.

1) Expand to 3 cities.

2) Is there anyone you want to kill? If yes, go to 5.

3) Is there anyone in the way of expanding further? If yes, go to 5.

4) Peacefully expand to 6 cities. Acquire a religion. If you don't do this naturally (by founding one, or gaining one from a neighbor) build the Oracle.

5) Build a bunch of Axemen and beat up on your most annoying or hostile neighbor. If you have Mathematics then throw in some catapults too.

That should get you through the first few thousand years.

Good luck!


Waldo

[cabert]

catapults require construction, this excepted nice algorithm

In vanilla, Washington is arguably the strongest leader. The UU comes really late of course, but who needs a UU when you're 10 techs ahead?

Washington's power is commerce : organized and financial is a bit overwhelming there .
+ fishing as starting tech, this makes him the absolute ruler of water maps (archipelago...)

[Steve the Noble]

I'm playing this exact combo right now (Roosevelt, Noble) and the game is going fine. Your disadvantage might be in "getting real estate before its all gone".

Trying to grow too fast will seriously hinder long-term growth. Ensure that your empire can support new cities *before* you build them.

In my game, Roosevelt's Industrious trait has been very helpful. Faster wonders can turn Washington into a great person farm. Take advantage of any stone or marble resources to build the wonders even faster.

[bardolph]

Roosevelt is decent. Industrious and Organized are both nice traits. However, they don't have the synergy that Washington gets with Charismatic + Expansive.

The + AND + work extremely well together, since both are needed in order to increase city population caps. This means that Washington ends up with some pretty huge cities pretty early in the game, and in modern times, shopping malls should push population numbers even higher.

Ironically, Washington benefits most from running Hereditary Rule until modern times.

(This is based on Warlords traits. In Vanilla, Washington is stupid powerful.)

Roosevelt, on the other hand, does not get the "1-2 punch" from his traits that Washington gets. Industrious is a nice trait, no doubt, but once you start comparing Roosevelt to other Industrious leaders, who have stronger secondary traits in addition to more useful UU and UBs, Roosevelt seems a little inadequate. Compare with Huayna Capac (Industrious/Financial, Quechua and Terrace) and Rameses II (Industrious/Spiritual, War Chariot and Obelisk), for starters.

[svv]

I should start playing as the Americans just so I can undertand what the dudes say when you give them orders. I'm tired of listening to the English guys, and most of the rest I can't understand a word.

[mrt144]

Civ isnt like a speculative real estate market. There will always be land for you to take without regards to law.

[KnightCato]

I played a Roosevelt-game recently and I must say that it changed my views on his UU, okey they come late but they are awsome as a first intercontinental strike to take those needed beachheads for your forthcoming invasion.
And they look cool!

[InFlux5]

With practice you will learn to leverage every trait.

For example, as an Industrious civ, you may be tempted to aimlessly "hard build" wonders in your cities. This is basically a waste of hammers that could go to infrastructure, or military units to acquire more real estate. (Note that your neighbors' real estate comes with population and terrain improvements.)

Now here's an example of a more intermediate Industrious strategy. Get Bronze Working, then Masonary. Build the Great Wall, chopping forests to speed up production.

Once the Great Wall is built, don't build any more wonders. After a while the Wall will generate a Great Engineer, which you can use for another wonder. Which one? Depends on your game. The Pyramids is a good option, which will contribute to another Great Engineer, but there are others.

An early Oracle is another good option for an Industrious leader. Look over the tech tree and see for yourself what you could open with that free technology. Code of Laws is a popular choice. At your difficulty level it could actually be Civil Service

So instead of spending many turns on wonders, you have still leveraged your trait to get some early wonders, while leaving your cities free to build other things.

Another good option for Industrious is to get the Oracle and use it for Metal Casting. Now you can build half-priced forges, which boost your production and can be used to generate Great Engineers.

[axident]

Originally Posted by InFlux5

With practice you will learn to leverage every trait.

For example, as an Industrious civ, you may be tempted to aimlessly "hard build" wonders in your cities. This is basically a waste of hammers that could go to infrastructure, or military units to acquire more real estate. (Note that your neighbors' real estate comes with population and terrain improvements.)

Now here's an example of a more intermediate Industrious strategy. Get Bronze Working, then Masonary. Build the Great Wall, chopping forests to speed up production.

Once the Great Wall is built, don't build any more wonders. After a while the Wall will generate a Great Engineer, which you can use for another wonder. Which one? Depends on your game. The Pyramids is a good option, which will contribute to another Great Engineer, but there are others.

An early Oracle is another good option for an Industrious leader. Look over the tech tree and see for yourself what you could open with that free technology. Code of Laws is a popular choice. At your difficulty level it could actually be Civil Service

So instead of spending many turns on wonders, you have still leveraged your trait to get some early wonders, while leaving your cities free to build other things.

Another good option for Industrious is to get the Oracle and use it for Metal Casting. Now you can build half-priced forges, which boost your production and can be used to generate Great Engineers.

My highest-scoring Prince game featured my building all but 2 wonders. You might argue that I would have scored even higher and dominated even more if I spent more hammers on other stuff, but even so, there are more ways to play the game than just what you think is the best way. Personally I enjoy winning the game in different ways and get really bored really quickly if I win the same way each time. My production didn't really hurt that much in that game since my 2nd city was my settler/worker spammer city and did all of that civvie stuff while my capital churned out insane numbers of wonders and GP such that it was generating 700 beakers/turn by the start of the endgame.

[InFlux5]

Originally Posted by axident

My highest-scoring Prince game featured my building all but 2 wonders. You might argue that I would have scored even higher and dominated even more if I spent more hammers on other stuff, but even so, there are more ways to play the game than just what you think is the best way. Personally I enjoy winning the game in different ways and get really bored really quickly if I win the same way each time. My production didn't really hurt that much in that game since my 2nd city was my settler/worker spammer city and did all of that civvie stuff while my capital churned out insane numbers of wonders and GP such that it was generating 700 beakers/turn by the start of the endgame.

I was talking about moving beyond Prince in my post, but I didn't mention that. I am a builder myself, but what bores me is when games are too easy. As I moved up in difficulty level, wars became more and more necessary. I am just posting strategies that will work on all levels, not just Prince and below.

This isn't "what I think is the best way", it's based on having read many, many posts by people who play at Emperor, Immortal, Deity. At Monarch+ the only way you are getting that many wonders is if you take them by force.

[axident]

Originally Posted by InFlux5

I was talking about moving beyond Prince in my post, but I didn't mention that. I am a builder myself, but what bores me is when games are too easy. As I moved up in difficulty level, wars became more and more necessary. I am just posting strategies that will work on all levels, not just Prince and below.

This isn't "what I think is the best way", it's based on having read many, many posts by people who play at Emperor, Immortal, Deity. At Monarch+ the only way you are getting that many wonders is if you take them by force.

It IS possible to almost monopolize wonders on Monarch through a massive building program, but probably not above Monarch. I routinely play Monarch and have tried Emperor with great success. I've won pretty much every way it's possible to win with various strats.

The OP is playing Noble; I think he ought to have fun playing the game with max flexibility rather than the decreasing flexibility as you go up in difficulty. The game is ultimately about fun, and it's fun to monopolize wonders when you can.