Supply Crawlers

[woodelf]

I'm sure this has been discussed, but what role will these play in SMAC?

Are we going to let them sit on tiles to collect resources or currency?

Will we let them act as caravans to other cities?

Rush building?

Are we planning on using them at all?

Graphically I can make one. Apolyton had one that was about 35000 polys so I'll try to lower that number a bit.

[snipperrabbit!!]

I'm pro supply crawler and I've various ideas on its effects and limitations. They first can be national units ie limited in number within a civ. Can't collect for more than XX turns. They should provide hammer, gold, and energy when deleted in a base. Can only work/collect within boders and outside fat cross. etc...

[AlazkanAssassin]

Originally Posted by woodelf

I'm sure this has been discussed, but what role will these play in SMAC?

Are we going to let them sit on tiles to collect resources or currency?

Will we let them act as caravans to other cities?

Rush building?

Are we planning on using them at all?

Graphically I can make one. Apolyton had one that was about 35000 polys so I'll try to lower that number a bit.

I forget what the function of caravans is so no comment on that,

I think that having a buildable rush builder, whatever the exchange rate, is unbalanced in that the AI will not be able to understand the methods to use it effectively.

I think that it might be possible to allow them to be used to collect resources or currency as long as the mechanics are set in such a way that they can't be overused easily and are easy for an AI to understand.

[woodelf]

I'm assuming Gerikes will need to do some coding for whatever we decide.

[Maniac]

Originally Posted by woodelf

Rush building?

I'm in favour of allowing supply crawlers to rushbuild. However I would give the units a high maintenance cost. Advantages:
1) You can't keep endless stacks of supply crawlers to instabuild secret projects.
2) Supply crawlers create the feel of your faction being more than a collection of bases, while the high maintenance still keeps balance. In modern and future times it is only realistic that bases can supply and support each other. Yet at the same time the maintenance makes sure you can't instabuild everything in some remote and undeveloped base. Plus it encourages the development of a good road infrastructure.


As for the resource-gathering function of supply crawlers, personally I'd like to argue against the SMAC implementation. It encouraged micromanagement way too much. To get the most of them, you had to eg when moving a crawler somewhere always let them gather resources at the end of their MPs, reactivate them at the start of each turn etc. Or you had to seek ways to rehome crawlers constantly from one base to another to temporarily give it more production so that you could churn out a unit or so one turn earlier. I'd like to have a system which makes that kind of micromanagement simply impossible or uneconomical.

For that reason I was wondering about another implementation. How about for each terrain improvement there's a robotic duplicate which can be built by the supply crawler (the crawler being killed in the process)? Each of those terrain improvements (when worked) adds a free specialist to the base, representing that the fields/mines/... are actually worked by robots/supply crawlers, freeing up people for other jobs.

[woodelf]

Can it be coded that Wonders can't be rushed by crawlers?

I'm all in favor of high maintenance for these units.

Originally Posted by Maniac

For that reason I was wondering about another implementation. How about for each terrain improvement there's a robotic duplicate which can be built by the supply crawler (the crawler being killed in the process)? Each of those terrain improvements (when worked) adds a free specialist to the base, representing that the fields/mines/... are actually worked by robots/supply crawlers, freeing up people for other jobs.

My only concern is the AI, but that can be coded and tweaked I think.

[GRM7584]

I'm against crawlers in general, either for resource gathering or rushing.

In SMAC, I was initially thrilled the concept. But once I discovered how much micromanaging was involved (not even going in to what Maniac said...just sending them from one base to another or putting them on every unused tile that I could protect), I stopped using them entirely. Thankfully, there are a lot of possible strategic approaches in SMAC, so its sensible to avoid them there. I don't think it would be as easy to make them "a viable alternative" rather than "an expensive necessity" if they were in civ.

The only way I'd be on board would be if the AI could be sufficiently instructed in using them...and a button became available that let the player automate them. Micromanaging in a game of this scope can really drag the whole thing down; having to manually command crawlers to go from my production bases to my other bases every X turns sounds like a chore, and churning out crawlers to put improvements or auto-resource collectors everywhere doesn't sound that great either.
One possible solution would be to set them up like the colonies in civ3...that wouldn't be too bad. Set them on a strategic/luxury/health resource outside your borders and they create a normal gathering improvement as well as 'seeding' the terrain with a small amount of your 'culture', effectively putting it in your borders unless someone else's borders overrun it (and thereby allowing you to reap the benefits of that resource).

[woodelf]

I just played SMAC again for the first time in ages and re-discovered how unbalanced these are. I made every Secret Project using these. It was fun up to a point.

[snipperrabbit!!]

I already said I have ideas to balance this.

[GeoModder]

Then indulge us.

[Wodan]

As for resource gathering, if we can automate them, (e.g., just send them to a tile and click the "work tile" button), then that seems to remove the objections.

[snipperrabbit!!]

What I think would be cool is :

Supply Crawler gives +1 hammer/turn to a selected base while working inside borders but not on landworked tiles
3 missions basically the same but with 3 different lengths. These missions are like caravans and it needs to go back to a base to achieve it. I propose 6 turns/10 turns/15 turns with a Fibonnaci down squared output i.e. 6 give 9 hammers, 10 give 16, 15 give 25. In order to use this benefit, you will need to move the crawler to the base of your liking. Perhaps they can also be limited with maintenance, number available, and mobility but the main thing for me is to not let the missions be cumulative.

[Maniac]

Um I guess I'll post it here in case the team members haven't noticed it in-game yet.

(In the current internal version) as a "proof of concept" the supply crawler can now build a Robotic Mine improvement. If you have the Assembly Hall base facility, this gives a free specialist in your base per improvement.
To be balancable, it should probably only provide that benefit though when the improvement in question is worked.

Mobile crawlers/trawlers could be a special feature of some factions such as the Angels or Pirates.

[Wodan]

I noticed that and wondered what the difference was between that and the normal mines. It doesn't clearly say you get a specialist.

Wodan