Nahauhtl Speaking people around?

[yewsef]

I'm not sure if I spelled it right, maybe Nahuatl?

Can someone who speaks the ancient Nahuatl language translate this for me please. "In Chichiltic Uan Tiltic Huitzilicoatzin" my research ended with Chichiltic meaning Red.

I read about Montezuma and was interested in that civilization that was destroyed by the Conquestadoris. Is there any people who still speak Nahautl and do they feel they belong to that civilization or was that civilization completely destroyed (culturally and historically).

[prestermatt]

I doubt you'll find too many people that know Nahuatl here, but you never know!

You should check out the works of James Lockhart if you haven't already. For example, Nahuatl as written: lessons in older written Nahuatl, with copious examples and texts (Stanford: Stanford University Press, 2001). It seems like that might help you.

By the way, the civilization was not completely destroyed. The Spanish cut off the "head" as it were, but left the rest of the body intact, keeping many forms of local administration. As Lockhart's works will tell you, large areas of Nahuatl culture survived.

[Holycannoli]

It's something about a red and possibly black hummingbird (tliltic is black, although your quote says tiltic). I'm not sure beyond that. Huitzilicoatzin could be a proper name, like Huitzilipochtli their sun god. It's hard to translate, since 'huitzil' means 'hummingbird' and opochtli means 'left' or 'left-hand side', and 'coatzin' means 'small serpent'. 'Huitz' could also mean 'to come', and to further complicate things 'huitztli' means 'thorn'. So what the heck does 'huitz' have to do with all these words?

I have an extremely basic knowledge of Nahuatl at best. And I mean extremely basic. I could be way off here. There's too many possible translations for someone like me.

Yewsef, you definitely need to read Aztec by Gary Jennings. It's one of the best novels I've ever read. It's incredibly long but you don't want it to ever end. I gotta be honest, I was never interested in the Aztecs before reading this book, and I considered them savage (still do for their religious practices which are graphically explained in the novel...stomach-turningly graphic some of them! The rituals for Xipe Toltec are especially disturbing).

Go get this book! I have yet to meet anyone else besides my own family who has read it. I think people are both intimidated by it's size of over 1000 pages, and also disinterested/confused about Aztec history and culture.

[yewsef]

Thank you prestermatt and Holycannoli for your friendly input. I used to think of the Aztecs(of this name is accurate) as uninteresting nomads but I was astonished to know that their city Tenochtitlan had a population of 250,000 in the 15-16th century! They had many pyramids built there and their way of life is really interesting. I was reading on the net and I couldn't stop the urge to read about them.

Despite their extreme and brutal rituals I still feel sorry for any culture to be destroyed but glad to know the culture is saved and some people are still speaking the language and recognize their culture.

I'll check that book you recommended, 1000pages? pfff.. I bought a book 2 days ago and my turn off that it was only 400page at least 1000 will last me few days

I'm hoping someone who knows this language translate the quote though. The Black and Red Hummingbird Serpent make some sense, if anyone else can elaborate.

[prestermatt]

Holycannoli, I'm impressed. I'd love to learn some Nahautl, though I doubt it will ever happen -- there are too many languages I'd like to learn!

That book sounds interesting. I'll have to read it. I love historical fiction.

[Elta]

Originally Posted by yewsef

I'm not sure if I spelled it right, maybe Nahuatl?

Can someone who speaks the ancient Nahuatl language translate this for me please. "In Chichiltic Uan Tiltic Huitzilicoatzin" my research ended with Chichiltic meaning Red.

I read about Montezuma and was interested in that civilization that was destroyed by the Conquestadoris. Is there any people who still speak Nahautl and do they feel they belong to that civilization or was that civilization completely destroyed (culturally and historically).

There are still about 1 million people in mexico who speak nahtual (allthou they are not all one language but they are as simmalar to each other as spanish-italian-french-portuguese)

For a average mexican person whether they are predominantly european or predomenantly mesoamerican they think of themselves as just mexican allthou till this day lighter skined people in general have more money but, it is not unheard of for mesoamerican type people to get into positions of power......it is no harder for them than it is for say a Asian person in america (we have had asian governors etc etc )

of the small 5% of the population of people that do not speak spanish as a first language they are generally poor and not seen as "real mexicans" by everyone else.

Allthou mexicans learn about and identify with parts of aztec culture - they have statues of aztec people next to the virgin mary etc etc They look down upon the poor 100% native people, mostly because they don't even try to assimalate ...but, I don't want to get into that discussion here.....maybe off topic.

[Holycannoli]

Originally Posted by prestermatt

Holycannoli, I'm impressed. I'd love to learn some Nahautl, though I doubt it will ever happen -- there are too many languages I'd like to learn!

That book sounds interesting. I'll have to read it. I love historical fiction.

Oh the book is just fantastic. It's why I play Civ IV as Aztecs much of the time now, where before I wouldn't even touch them. I just have to be Aztec. It's also why I want them to have more than 1 leader in the game. You'll know why when you read the book.

The Aztecs built a city on a lake! They built floating farms for food. When the Spanish arrived accounts say when they first laid eyes on that city on the 4-colored lake it gleamed white in the sun and looked like paradise. And it probably did until you got to the pyramid, then it looks like hell-on-earth. That's why they're so fascinating.

[yewsef]

Originally Posted by Elta

There are still about 1 million people in mexico who speak nahtual (allthou they are not all one language but they are as simmalar to each other as spanish-italian-french-portuguese)

For a average mexican person whether they are predominantly european or predomenantly mesoamerican they think of themselves as just mexican allthou till this day lighter skined people in general have more money but, it is not unheard of for mesoamerican type people to get into positions of power......it is no harder for them than it is for say a Asian person in america (we have had asian governors etc etc )

of the small 5% of the population of people that do not speak spanish as a first language they are generally poor and not seen as "real mexicans" by everyone else.

Allthou mexicans learn about and identify with parts of aztec culture - they have statues of aztec people next to the virgin mary etc etc They look down upon the poor 100% native people, mostly because they don't even try to assimalate ...but, I don't want to get into that discussion here.....maybe off topic.

So, the 5% people that don't speak spanish are not recognized as real mexicans? are these the native people who speaks ancient languages or aliens to Mexico?

The native people are poor because they don't try to assimilate to the foriegn culture? is that what you were trying to say? Feel free to tell us more, i just want to learn more about what's going on there besides the translation of that sentence.

[yewsef]

Originally Posted by Holycannoli

Oh the book is just fantastic. It's why I play Civ IV as Aztecs much of the time now, where before I wouldn't even touch them. I just have to be Aztec. It's also why I want them to have more than 1 leader in the game. You'll know why when you read the book.

The Aztecs built a city on a lake! They built floating farms for food. When the Spanish arrived accounts say when they first laid eyes on that city on the 4-colored lake it gleamed white in the sun and looked like paradise. And it probably did until you got to the pyramid, then it looks like hell-on-earth. That's why they're so fascinating.

I have a question about the book, is it historically accurate with fiction characters and story? or would it confuse me with the real history of the Aztecs and their culture?

[Elta]

Originally Posted by yewsef

So, the 5% people that don't speak spanish are not recognized as real mexicans? are these the native people who speaks ancient languages or aliens to Mexico?

The native people are poor because they don't try to assimilate to the foriegn culture? is that what you were trying to say? Feel free to tell us more, i just want to learn more about what's going on there besides the translation of that sentence.

Sure I'll try it's sort of like this; a majority of that 5% live in little towns where they rarley leave - just think of rural America in the 1930s - this is not a bad analogy because only 1 in 5 people in mexico have cars (about one per family ..yes) but, in rural areas it is more like 1 in 50 in those areas.

Allthou school is free in mexico till 8th grade in most of these towns they resort to distance education when trying to teach them spanish (amoung other things of course )

When a person gets a education and leaves for a city - raises a family etc then their kids ussually don't speak the native languages as a first language

( much like the U.S. the average children of immgrants speak English predominantly 95% with 70% having spanish as a second language - the grand children of immgrants speak english 99% predominantly and only speak spanish as a second language 5% .... I reckon it is about the same with native people and spanish in mexico)

You could probably get a better picture of all of this if you went to Mexico on a vacation or something like that.

just ask me something if you have a question I'll try and answer

[Holycannoli]

Originally Posted by yewsef

I have a question about the book, is it historically accurate with fiction characters and story? or would it confuse me with the real history of the Aztecs and their culture?

As far as I know it's historically accurate with fictional characters. The author did 16 years or so of research to write it.

The book has more to do with culture in many parts than history. That's where it gets fascinating (and disgusting). But it does have a lot of historical events. It's not the kind of history that you'd learn in a basic history class though.

Interesting tidbit: The Aztecs considered the Mayans to be barbaric, ugly, cultureless people. So if you've seen Apocalypto and enjoyed it you'll be thrilled with this book since that movie was accurate: The Mayans really were barbaric, ugly and cultureless in comparison.

Better analogy: The Mayans were to the Aztecs as today's (in the US) inner city uneducated people are to suburbia's white collar executives.

[Chieftess]

Moderator Action: Moved to History. Seems a bit more fitting there than Civ4.

Also, there was a user here by the name of Ehecatl Atzin who studied Aztec history, and knows Nahautl (thus the name in that language). He doesn't post here anymore, but you can try to email him - he's been very busy at his university teaching I believe. You can pm me if you want his email. It's been 3 years, though, so I don't know if he even looks at it anymore.

[yewsef]

Originally Posted by Elta

Sure I'll try it's sort of like this; a majority of that 5% live in little towns where they rarley leave - just think of rural America in the 1930s - this is not a bad analogy because only 1 in 5 people in mexico have cars (about one per family ..yes) but, in rural areas it is more like 1 in 50 in those areas.

Allthou school is free in mexico till 8th grade in most of these towns they resort to distance education when trying to teach them spanish (amoung other things of course )

When a person gets a education and leaves for a city - raises a family etc then their kids ussually don't speak the native languages as a first language

( much like the U.S. the average children of immgrants speak English predominantly 95% with 70% having spanish as a second language - the grand children of immgrants speak english 99% predominantly and only speak spanish as a second language 5% .... I reckon it is about the same with native people and spanish in mexico)

You could probably get a better picture of all of this if you went to Mexico on a vacation or something like that.

just ask me something if you have a question I'll try and answer

Thanks for your detailed input. So, what I understand is... within time the Nahuatl language could disappear. I really hope I won't live in a world with just a few languages because of globilization, that would be one boring world for me.

Do you personally know two persons who speaks Nahuatl between themselves in real life? or have you seen 2 people communicate with each other using that language in Mexico?

[yewsef]

Originally Posted by Holycannoli

As far as I know it's historically accurate with fictional characters. The author did 16 years or so of research to write it.

The book has more to do with culture in many parts than history. That's where it gets fascinating (and disgusting). But it does have a lot of historical events. It's not the kind of history that you'd learn in a basic history class though.

Interesting tidbit: The Aztecs considered the Mayans to be barbaric, ugly, cultureless people. So if you've seen Apocalypto and enjoyed it you'll be thrilled with this book since that movie was accurate: The Mayans really were barbaric, ugly and cultureless in comparison.

Better analogy: The Mayans were to the Aztecs as today's (in the US) inner city uneducated people are to suburbia's white collar executives.

Funny thing that I JUST watched that movie last night lol. I LOVED it, I was talking to my GF about my interest in the Aztecs(if this term is accurate) and Mesoamerica in general. She said that she gave me the movie Apocalypto as a gift one day but I didn't check. I was "WHAT?" I don't know why I didnt pay attention to it. I watched it last night and loved it, I know I wouldn't have liked it as much if I've seen it earlier. While I was watching I was familiar with many things. Like, Montezuma! I saw him, they didnt say he was Montezuma. I knew it was him because of the Spanish people at the end, so he's Montezuma II.

The movie is great I loved the fact that there was not a single english word. I felt like reading a history book. Two thumbs up for Mel Gibson.

My next step now is to get that book. So, is it true that the Three Kingdoms (Aztec?) whom their capital was Tenochtitlan recognize the Mayans as Sacrifice Tools for their gods and they make sure they don't wipe them out and keep a few for future sacrifice?

That was interesting seeing how they left the children to live with no harm. I wish the movie would have continued and saw what Cortes had done there and how things went after that. The Cortes Conquest interests me the most and how it happened because there has been many contradictions about that event.

[yewsef]

Originally Posted by Chieftess

Moderator Action: Moved to History. Seems a bit more fitting there than Civ4.

Also, there was a user here by the name of Ehecatl Atzin who studied Aztec history, and knows Nahautl (thus the name in that language). He doesn't post here anymore, but you can try to email him - he's been very busy at his university teaching I believe. You can pm me if you want his email. It's been 3 years, though, so I don't know if he even looks at it anymore.

It definitely fits better in this forum, I just realized I posted this in Civ4 and it has nothing to do with it except for MontezumaII and the Aztec Civ.

I've sent a PM, thanks for your help

[Holycannoli]

Originally Posted by yewsef

Funny thing that I JUST watched that movie last night lol. I LOVED it, I was talking to my GF about my interest in the Aztecs(if this term is accurate) and Mesoamerica in general. She said that she gave me the movie Apocalypto as a gift one day but I didn't check. I was "WHAT?" I don't know why I didnt pay attention to it. I watched it last night and loved it, I know I wouldn't have liked it as much if I've seen it earlier. While I was watching I was familiar with many things. Like, Montezuma! I saw him, they didnt say he was Montezuma. I knew it was him because of the Spanish people at the end, so he's Montezuma II.

The movie is great I loved the fact that there was not a single english word. I felt like reading a history book. Two thumbs up for Mel Gibson.

My next step now is to get that book. So, is it true that the Three Kingdoms (Aztec?) whom their capital was Tenochtitlan recognize the Mayans as Sacrifice Tools for their gods and they make sure they don't wipe them out and keep a few for future sacrifice?

That was interesting seeing how they left the children to live with no harm. I wish the movie would have continued and saw what Cortes had done there and how things went after that. The Cortes Conquest interests me the most and how it happened because there has been many contradictions about that event.

No Montezuma's not in the movie. No Aztec is. Those are all Mayans. There are many similarities between the two peoples, but a few glaring differences too.

The Spanish first arrived in Mayan lands, south of the Aztecs. So the movie is correct in having Mayans first see the giant floating houses on the sea, and people of white skin rowing to shore.

[yewsef]

Originally Posted by Holycannoli

No Montezuma's not in the movie. No Aztec is. Those are all Mayans. There are many similarities between the two peoples, but a few glaring differences too.

The Spanish first arrived in Mayan lands, south of the Aztecs. So the movie is correct in having Mayans first see the giant floating houses on the sea, and people of white skin rowing to shore.

Uh oh. So all this civilization doesn't belong to the Aztecs? But they had the Pyramids and the Sacrifice Rituals of the Aztecs? and why do the Mayans sacrafice other Mayans? Maybe these are Tlaxcalan Mayans?

[Holycannoli]

Mayan civilization flourished hundreds of years before the Aztecs. By the time the Aztecs were in power (and by the time of Apocalypto) the Mayans were already heavily in decline. Mayan culture is considered the parent culture of mesoamerica and there's no doubt that Aztec culture was heavily influenced by it, much like Roman culture was influenced by Greek.

[sydhe]

Gibson borrowed a lot from the Aztec culture for his fictional Mayans. He may have been correct to do so, though, since the cultures had things in common.

I think at one point he has the humans sacrificed to Kukulkan, which I believe would be incorrect. Kukulkan was the Mayan equivalent of Quetzalcoatl who didn't receive human sacrifices. That would have been the sun god, Huitzilopochtli (I'm not sure who the Mayan equivalent is.) There may have been other deities who received them, but Quetzalcoatl was opposed to them.

[yewsef]

It is indeed confusing. The consuming of sacrificed hearts, the rituals, pyramids, clothes. All what I've read about the Aztecs I've seen in the Mayans. It is hard to distinguish between both. Where is the difference between Aztecs and Mayan then, is it just the Language and Gods?