Best Seafaring Civ.Dutch or Portuguese?

[marioflag]

As the title of the thread says what do you think is the best seafaring civ between Portuguese and Dutch?

Dutch
Leader: Willem van Oranje - Creative, Financial
Starting Techs: Fishing, Agriculture
Unique Unit: East Indiaman (Galleon), +2 strength and one extra cargo space, can also explore rival territory.
Unique Building: Dike (Levee), grants +1 production from all water tiles.

Portuguese
Leader: Joao II - Expansive, Imperialistic
Starting Techs: Fishing, Mining
Unique Unit: Carrack (Caravel), has an additional cargo space, can carry military units, and can explore rival territory.
Unique Building: Feitoria (Customs House), get one additional commerce from all water tiles.

IMO Dutch are better, Financial trait with Dike make every single water tile really powerful, and their UU is really good
Portugal has a really interesting UU but has one of the worst pair of traits among all civs.

[Gaius Octavius]

Worst pairing? They can chop a worker out in no time, then chop a settler out in record time! Portugal got a bad rap in Civ III, so I guess some things won't change.

My vote goes for the Portuguese, since they can transport military units long before other civs. A smart player can leverage this for territory grab and the additional commerce will ensure the new colonies won't bankrupt your economy.

[TheLastOne36]

yah but apparently Gaius foregot to vote.

[Gaius Octavius]

I post so quickly he didn't have a chance to get the poll up yet.

[TheLastOne36]

ok

[Ball Lightning]

Definitly the dutch.

[Dutch Canuck]

I voted for the Dutch, but I will grant the Portuguese a close second. For sure the Portuguese have an edge for a short while but Carracks carrying 2 units is not that powerful because many Carracks must be built in order to ferry a sizable military overseas.

I think that once the Dutch get their Indiamen sailing they will quickly eclipse Portuguese naval power and make up for a lag in getting troops overseas (4 troops per Indiamen and it can cruise through unfriendly waters.

Additionally, the Dutch will be able to generate greater benefits from coastal development in the long run. So I think the task for the Portuguese would be to grab as much coastal turf as possible before the Dutch get sailing with their UU's, thus forcing the Dutch to go to war over prime coastal realestate. The nature of the game map will play a big role on the degree of rivalry between these two civs, I bet!

Here's an interesting question: even though the Carrack can carry 2 military units (as opposed to the Caravel carrying only one special unit), can it carry settlers? Settlers are not military units...

[gettingfat]

Definitely Dutch. It's true the Portuguese can get its first settler fast, but so what? If you play island map who care about the first settler?

Even with an additional cargo space caravel can carry only two units. How many carracks you have to build to launch a decent intercontinental war?

And even with Feitoria Portuguese will likely have poor economy. The maintainence will kill you from overexpansion.

[Norseman2]

I could see Darius turning Portugal into a very, very deadly force on a map with at least 4-5 continents, and preferably one for each nation. The tech tree to get the carrack doesn't stray very far from the tech tree for a rapid military buildup. He could launch his first attack very, very early in the game because lighthouses can be built twice as fast with organized, and financial gives extra commerce from water tiles. He won't need to be picky about where he places new cities, and organized will ensure they pay for themselves pretty easily. If the first, and possibly second or third assaults fail, his opponent still won't have the ability to send land units to his continent for quite a while.

Boudica would be a bit slower on the launch, since she's not as much of a powerhouse nation. She would be best suited to the Dutch, and a mid-game launch with units produced through vassalage, theology, barracks, stables, etc. A handful of units promoted like that, supported by catapults and allowed to heal between fights could become extremely deadly. Toss in the added production from the water tiles and she's set. State property would be a must-have, but that's ok since other civs will probably get most of the corporations before she does. It would end up working in her favor.

Between the two, I think I'd have to go with Darius of Portugal. The extremely early launch would give him a first-strike that, if carried out properly, would kill another civ before there are any diplomatic penalties for doing so. The only problem is getting the production to pull it off, which could be very map dependent. Boudica with the Dutch is a pretty solid plan, unless a Portuguese Darius hits her when she was expecting to be safe for another 400 years or so.

[marioflag]

Originally Posted by Gaius Octavius

Worst pairing? They can chop a worker out in no time, then chop a settler out in record time! Portugal got a bad rap in Civ III, so I guess some things won't change.

My vote goes for the Portuguese, since they can transport military units long before other civs. A smart player can leverage this for territory grab and the additional commerce will ensure the new colonies won't bankrupt your economy.

I really don't understand how chopping a settler or worker could make Expansive so powerful.First because during all the game how much worker you build, secondly because chopping worker or the bonus to production when building them is important only at the starting of the game, in late game it becomes nearly useless.Same things could be said on +25% given to settler production.I agree btw that they have some synergy.

[r_rolo1]

I really think that when Dutch and Portuguese appear in the same game, the thing will be :
1) Portuguese expand, criple everyone, conquer a few key cities and dominate the seas
2)Dutch get their UU and start to attack Portuguese everywhere ( like in real history )

I believe that the Portuguese player in a map with the Dutch, will have to think seriously on finishing/vassalising them ASAP or in getting a superior force before they UU/UB combo starts to shine. Otherwise... just read the History books

[sneaky]

I expect that the Portuguese will make the trade posts and colonies that the Dutch will conquer when their UU becomes available.

[Dnomal]

I think itall depends on the setting of the game, if it's a Terra map wih Barbarians a few Prtugess units could get a foothold and conquer the new world before the Dutch could even arrive.

However if it'sa map without barbs then the Portugesse UU is pratically useless, since it can't transport Settlers they won't be able to conquer/rule the new world. Whereas the Ducth can lter arrive with their UU faster and in greater numbers than the Portugesse can in regular Galleons.

However i think Portugal will prove to be the greater Sea power, (if there are barbs on the map), especially since their arly settlers and workers wil allow them to secure early resources and land, and then continue expansion onto another continent sooner. That said the Dutch will have superior technology rfrom their traits, who knows a small wealthy, efficent they might just get Galleons before a vast bloated Portugal could get Caravels...

[TheLastOne36]

yah it really matters on the situation.

[Vraslosken]

My favorite is the dutch. But The Vikings are better than both.

[sneaky]

If the Portuguese UU can't carry settlers, its use certainly will be less. The Portuguese of course can take over barbaric cities and maybe some weak defended cities. But the UU's small cargo space will make the conquering of well defended overseas cities and maintaining of large overseas empires fairly hard.
Although obviously it will depend on the game situation, I suspect that in many cases, the Dutch will rush towards their UU with their great financial income to propel research and ease unit upgrading. They will proceed to create a gigantic naval army that will dwarf the others and control the seas and trade routs for a long period of time. It expect that it will be very effecting in conquering overseas colonies, such as the ones created by the Portuguese.

[TheLastOne36]

by any chance does BTS have pirates?

[marioflag]

Originally Posted by sneaky

If the Portuguese UU can't carry settlers, its use certainly will be less. The Portuguese of course can take over barbaric cities and maybe some weak defended cities. But the UU's small cargo space will make the conquering of well defended overseas cities and maintaining of large overseas empires fairly hard.
Although obviously it will depend on the game situation, I suspect that in many cases, the Dutch will rush towards their UU with their great financial income to propel research and ease unit upgrading. They will proceed to create a gigantic naval army that will dwarf the others and control the seas and trade routs for a long period of time. It expect that it will be very effecting in conquering overseas colonies, such as the ones created by the Portuguese.

If my memory deserve Caravel should transport settlers, so it should be the same for Carracks, actually Carracks are more useful to make sneak attacks against enemy,and will make open borders treaties less needed for Portuguese.
About Dutch UU statement it would be true if East Indianman replaced Ship of the Line or Frigate which would have given Dutch more firepower on the sea until Combustion tech, but East Indianman will give to Dutch more firepower for a shorter period (between Galleons and Frigate timespan), while giving them huge advantage in colonization of new continents until Combustion.So it's more about land grabbing on another continents than sea control,which is in any case a huge advantage.

[sneaky]

Originally Posted by marioflag

If my memory deserve Caravel should transport settlers, so it should be the same for Carracks, actually Carracks are more useful to make sneak attacks against enemy,and will make open borders treaties less needed for Portuguese.

Your memory is playing tricks on you. :d The Caravel can't transport settlers.

Caravel
Cargo Space: 1 (can carry scout, explorer, missionary, spy, or great people)
Can explore rival territory w/o triggering war

Originally Posted by marioflag

About Dutch UU statement it would be true if East Indianman replaced Ship of the Line or Frigate which would have given Dutch more firepower on the sea until Combustion tech, but East Indianman will give to Dutch more firepower for a shorter period (between Galleons and Frigate timespan), while giving them huge advantage in colonization of new continents until Combustion.So it's more about land grabbing on another continents than sea control,which is in any case a huge advantage.

This of course is true. Although notnhing is stopping the Dutch to also have Frigate, Privateers and Ship of the Lines around.

[TheLastOne36]

also with the mix and match a leader with dutch/portugal might be op.