Best Seafaring Civ.Dutch or Portuguese?

[Dom Pedro II]

Yes, there's absolutely no reason to think that Firaxis hasn't simply just added an additional condition that separates military units from non-special, non-military units.

This at least makes some sense since one would assume that a Settler unit would include thousands of people and large amounts of equipment for setting up a city while a military unit would consist of less people and need less provisions as well. So I think it works from a balance perspective as well as a realistic perspective.

[Colossian]

Nuke and Globle warming are for Dutch. All deserts but DIKE is free from Nuke.

[CHEESE!]

Originally Posted by TheLastOne36

by any chance does BTS have pirates?

do you mean privateers or barb ships or neither?

[CHEESE!]

CARRACK CAN HOLD SETTLERS. Proven by WB.

[AfterShafter]

Hrm... I'd go with... Ragnar

[lordqarlyn]

Well, because terra maps are my prefered maps, I must vote the Portuguese. Just imagine sending colonists to the new world when you only have optics, while your rivals must wait until they research astronomy! Even on non-terra maps, my maps are so large that there are always at least a few isolated islands with useful resources or strategically located, outside the range or galleys, that I could take advantage of with the carrack.

[lordqarlyn]

Originally Posted by Dom Pedro II

This at least makes some sense since one would assume that a Settler unit would include thousands of people and large amounts of equipment...

Not necessarily. Many cases, settlers came in small groups. Of course in the case of successful settlements, others would join later on, something not reflected in the game. When I was touring in Plymouth, in Massachusetts, I read it was initially settled by 116 people (can't remember the exact number). Naturally that would not be considered a city, barely even a hamlet.

[magichj]

There are only two kinds of people I don't like. Those who are intolerant of other peoples cultures... And the Dutch. Austin Power's Fashza

Eh... Personally I don't like either of them though given the choice I suppose I would have to go with the Dutch. I just don't see the use of an extra cargo slot on a caravel? I mean I guess I could get all gitty about sending two spies or explorers around but what is the point of two explorers on an island?

[AfterShafter]

Originally Posted by magichj

Eh... Personally I don't like either of them though given the choice I suppose I would have to go with the Dutch. I just don't see the use of an extra cargo slot on a caravel? I mean I guess I could get all gitty about sending two spies or explorers around but what is the point of two explorers on an island?

That extra cargo slot can carry things like settlers, workers, and grenadiers None of which the regular caraval can carry.

[magichj]

I thought that it had the same restrictions on it as a regular caravel.

[AfterShafter]

Originally Posted by magichj

I thought that it had the same restrictions on it as a regular caravel.

Nope, definitely not. Just read this thread - people tested it in the worldbuilder.

[`DG`]

Yes you can have settler in a carrack, I took some screenshots for any remaining disbelievers.

[lordqarlyn]

Originally Posted by `DG`

Yes you can have settler in a carrack, I took some screenshots for any remaining disbelievers.

Aw, some people will probably insist you used photoshop doctored the screenshot.

The Carrack is the reason I prefer the Portuguese over the Dutch. Especially when I am on a Terra map. Being able to settle the New World way before anyone else is awesome. I end up building Versaille and FP on the new world, and the maintenance costs are reasonable.

[`DG`]

UU:
The Carrack can be damn useful, as it can reach uninhabited islands with settlers before anyone else. The East Indiaman is obviously a really good Galleon, but it's just a better Galleon.

It pales compared to the Portugese being able to land-grab overseas a *lot* earlier compared to everyone else - though TBF Carrack only really comes into it's own in the longer game modes with archipelago-ish landmasses, while the East Indiaman is beneficial on just about any game where there's water.

Result: tie, depending on settings/strategy.

UB:
the unique bonus comes down to +1 commerce in seas vs +1 production in seas.

I'd veer for +1 production since it's more flexible where it counts. You can put islands into Wealth production and hit the research slider % up, partially negating the research bonus from Portugese waters while also being able to boost production, which Fiorita can only do if it allows you to build say a mine where you might have put a windmill for the commerce (which for me is more usually a food consideration anyway).

However it get's more interesting if you use a financial civ with Portugal, suddenly instead of +1 commerce on oceans you're getting another +1 for financial bonus: 3 commerce on ocean tiles! All those crappy marginal island cities suddenly become minor cash cows.

Result: tie, depending on settings/strategy.


The leader traits I left out as personally I like to mix n match, and anyway I think traits will kill off leader choices for many people before the UU/UB are considered. Like for me Dutchie's financial makes him win regardless of everything else.

[gettingfat]

Originally Posted by `DG`

UB:
the unique bonus comes down to +1 commerce in seas vs +1 production in seas.

I'd veer for +1 production since it's more flexible where it counts. You can put islands into Wealth production and hit the research slider % up, partially negating the research bonus from Portugese waters while also being able to boost production, which Fiorita can only do if it allows you to build say a mine where you might have put a windmill for the commerce (which for me is more usually a food consideration anyway).

However it get's more interesting if you use a financial civ with Portugal, suddenly instead of +1 commerce on oceans you're getting another +1 for financial bonus: 3 commerce on ocean tiles! All those crappy marginal island cities suddenly become minor cash cows.

Result: tie, depending on settings/strategy.
.

This is not a tie IMHO. Dikes are more powerful. The difference is not just hammers vs commerce, it's also about city placement. Dikes add hammers to all water tiles, as long as your city is besides some sort of tile with water (river, coast, doesn't matter). In combination with the creative trait, you almost never have to worry about city placement. When I play Willem almost all of my cities are in their optimal spots.

Even only considering hammer vs commerce, adding a hammer to a sea tile is still vastly superior to an additional commerce. Hammers are usually more difficult to get in the game. Adding a hammer to a coastal tile means from 0% to 100%, adding a commerce add 50% to the original value.

And it is further complicated by the golden age. GA only give you additional stuff if the tile already has at least one. For example during GA each Deutch (with dike) coastal tile gives you 2 food 2 hammer 4 commerce, whereas each Portugese coastal tile gives you 2 food 4 commerce. Playing Willems I always research calender early for the MofM because he benefits too much from the GA.

Seriously, I think Dikes are a bit......OP.

[omglazers]

Dutch. Levee.

Nuff said.

[Snaker8]

I had to vote for the Dutch as the better seafaring nation, Carracks can come handy, but when it really comes to dominating opponents at sea, the Dutch get the job done. With the Dike and East Indiaman, I vote YES on Dutch.

[pxpdoo]

Never played either, but those Settler-carrying Carracks look powerful for New World and Archipelago...
Not bad for an eight (8)-month old revived thread lol

[lutzj]

Best UU: Tie, depends on the scenario and player.
Best UB: Ports
Best Leader: Dutch

Due to the custom leaders feature in BTS, I voted Portugal.

[Xhaine]

As far as Naval Civs go my vote goes to the forgotten one, the vikings. Ragnar's financial and lighthouse replacement gives each water tile 2 and 3. the trading post gives the most universal naval advantage. it lasts throughout the game and aplies to everything froom galleys to battleships! Lastly the upgradeable bezerker gives your main battleforce throughout the ages the cost free ability too attack from the sea
I voted for the same strength but later reconsidered when i read about your good points!
GO DUTCH!