We need another technology discussion/poll

[Provolution]

Citizens

I think it is high time to agree on research goals.
First of all, we are only one turn away from Printing Press (1 more gold for villages and towns) and two turns away from Monotheism (Organized Religion).
Since we voted for Organized Religion in the Civics change, I suggest the following sequence

Printing Press - 1 turn (respecting work of great scientist)
Monotheism - 2 turns (respecting majority in civics poll)

These could be researched and completed easily during the conquest of Berlin. So we should shift away from Guilds immediately, as we lose the opportunity to produce our UU keshiks.

This effectively allows us to make a revolution on the conquest of the pyramids.

Then we need to discuss and poll other technologies. I suggest we start with Compass, and now explore the naval route. We are not going to fail the naval race as the Mongols failed to invade Japan due to the Kamikaze.

So please initiate discussion.

[grant2004]

I agree that monotheism should be research after PP, otherwise we can't follow the results of the civic change polls.

However I'm certain that guilds is far more useful to us than compass. First I don't think the loss of keshiks is a big deal, they're being replaced by knights, a very powerful unit for the era with 10 strength. Also we have quite a few keshiks allready produced who would be capable of moving to the front if units were produced to replace them in city defense duties, meaning we can still increase our scouting force even after guilds is reasearched.

There are a few developed cities who would be able to build grocers soon to help increase their gold output, and that will certainly be usefull with the large deficit we are running.

Finally guilds is a neccessary tech on the road to banking and mercantalism, a civic I can't stress the wonders of enough. With a large empire like ours the number of free scientists, boosted by representation, would be competitive with our current research output, or if free merchants were used our deficit could be reduced heavily while still increasing our science output due to representation.

[Methos]

I've quoted this from another thread, since it pertains to this discussion. Provolution lists the differences between the two units:

Originally Posted by Provolution

Keshiks

Movement 2, Strength 6, Cost 50 hammers
First strike, 50 % bonus against catapult, no terrain movement penalties
No defense bonus

Knights
Movement 2, Strength 10, Cost 90 hammers
Immune to first strikes
No defense bonus

I feel we should stick with Guilds as the grocers will definitely help our economy. Notice that we are running with the slider rather high on wealth, which would really benefit our economy. At this point, I'm thinking boosting our economy is more important to maintain our standing with the other continent. I'm hoping the other continent hasn't passed us up.

I don't feel we should neglect Guilds due to the loss of Keshiks, though I am uncertain how to proceed on our techs. PP will help out on commerce, if we have any villages and towns. Monotheism will help due to our polling results, and Guilds is just overall a good tech.

I like all three, but am uncertain what order to research them.

[Provolution]

All right, we have a consensus on PP, then Monotheism, right now, not Guilds.

Then we need to discuss, then poll these likely candidates

3 turns
Literature (Heroic Epic, we can already build it since we got 4 promotion units, this should be placed in a city producing troops fast)

4 turns
Drama (In case we want some more culture or more people in NOTA with Global Theatre)

5 turns
Compass (Allows us to begin to think overseas)

8 turns
Guilds (the route to Banking and Mercantilism)

9 turns
Philosophy (Because the icon resembles Daveshack, our moderator)

11 turns
Engineering (1 extra road movement, critical in connecting our empire, and highly recommended if we are to continue our war with Germany in order to get our troops to the front, blends nicely with serfdom and more roads.
This also leads to chemistry, for Frigates and Grenadiers)

20 turns
Education (A long shot, since we do not have the economy and infrastructure to cover many universities)

[Methos]

Originally Posted by Provolution

All right, we have a consensus on PP, then Monotheism, right now, not Guilds.

I disagree. The only one who has so far spoken against Guilds is Provolution, therefore I see no consensus in dropping it. Until more people speak out against it, it should be considered as part of this discussion.

[Provolution]

I think PP and Monotheism pulls rank, since these are already close to completion or polled, whereas Guilds is barely discussed and not even yet polled.

I may like to see a discussion on this, then a poll between the best options, I can see, after PP and Monotheism, Guilds, Compass and Engineering, possibly also Literature in a science poll. If the people want a longer German War, possibly a longer Roman War. Heroic Epic is of use. Engineering is needed right now, if we are to take on more than Berlin, simply to make our infantrymen move double as fast on roads. Compass is needed to get overseas at large, getting astronomy right after. I do not think Guilds is the clear cut single option as presented here.

[grant2004]

Currently we have 15 cities 16 with Berlin, that adds up to 106 beakers if we choose all scientists or 48 gold and 48 beakers if we choose all merchants, of course something in between is also possible.

Currently we produce 120 beakers per turn, and have a 39 gold per turn deficit. Going for banking will allow us to either nearly double our research rate, or remove our entire deficit while still increasing science output.

That looks pretty useful before even considering knights, grocers, and banks.

Just wanted to come back with the actual numbers on that.

[DaveShack]

Edit: Grant got his reply in first, so this needs a quote to provide reference.

Originally Posted by Provolution

I think PP and Monotheism pulls rank, since these are already close to completion or polled, whereas Guilds is barely discussed and not even yet polled.

The polls on civics are for which ones we want to use when the civic is available. A poll on one topic doesn't "pull rank" on a different topic. It may indicate interest in changing policy for the other area, but it is very unfair to assume that one decision obviates a need for the other one.

What follows is a statement of certain facts, nothing personal.

You've tried this tactic before, of trying to take a narrow gauge decision and use it to force sweeping policy decisions which you called "doctrines". The "decisions" language you see now in the Constitution was prompted, in part, by assertions in previous games by yourself and others that once a policy had been polled that it was irreversible. This led to the rule that a 2nd initiative on the same subject supercedes the first.

As a citizen I say, let us make up our own mind about whether the civics and techs should be integrated decisions, or not.

[Provolution]

All right, I can go along with Guilds, if we do the following in the following sequence:

With Berlin only
Printing Press, Monotheism, Guilds, Banking, Compass, Engineering

With a longer protracted war with much logistics and troop movement from South to North (German and/or Roman War)
Printing Press, Monotheism, Engineering, Guilds, Banking, Compass

The double road speed is essential if you (the people) throw the army into a long campaign up north, with long logistical lines south.

But I am now convinced on the commercial benefits, so I am more leaning towards Guilds and Banking now.

In the interim, we need to produce a few Keshiks more, we are four keshiks now, and I think 8-10 should be the target number.

[Provolution]

I think we should discuss and poll the technologies regardless, I just think Monotheism is a good choice here. And do not bring up the doctrine thing now here please, I polled the civics separately, not as party programs. You were the one asking for bundling civic packages, not me.

However, I can also play "concerned citizen who does not feel listened too", which overdone is as bad as "doctrines", and pull a "longbowmanpoll" on the subject, how's that?

I am not "forcing" "sweeping" policy decisions over someones head. The game as you said, was lethargic when I got here. Now it is more lively, which is good. I do not expect everyone to agree with me, like with vassalage, but I argue my case, sometimes I win, sometimes not, as it should be.

When I say a 2 turn technology of a civic people want is "pulling rank", I am merely stating that the idea has a fairly good chance of winning support, very much as the "concerned citizens voice" rhetoric is a way to do the same.
After all, it is all about argument and polls and in-game mechanics, "same sheep, different wrapping".

[DaveShack]

Originally Posted by Provolution

I think we should discuss and poll the technologies regardless, I just think Monotheism is a good choice here.

I'd even be ok with changing to Monotheism without a poll, if there are many comments in its favor and few against.

I am not "forcing" "sweeping" policy decisions over someones head. The game as you said, was lethargic when I got here. Now it is more lively, which is good. I do not expect everyone to agree with me, like with vassalage, but I argue my case, sometimes I win, sometimes not, as it should be.

That's good. Liberal usage of "I think" or "IMO" will help. I need to do that more myself, since some people have trouble seeing the difference between my Mod personality and my Citizen one.

When I say a 2 turn technology of a civic people want is "pulling rank", I am merely stating that the idea has a fairly good chance of winning support, very much as the "concerned citizens voice" rhetoric is a way to do the same.

Except the term pulling rank has unwanted connotations with some people. It's better to say it the other way, then there are less chances for misconceptions.

[Conroe]

Originally Posted by Methos

PP will help out on commerce, if we have any villages and towns.

The last time I checked, PP would net us a whopping 6 commerce. That was a turnchat (or 2) ago, so my guess is it is probably up to 10 commerce by now. Personally, I don't think PP is worth it. At least not right now. That 1 turns worth of research would be better spent elsewhere IMHO.

Originally Posted by Methos

I'm hoping the other continent hasn't passed us up.

We already know (from the wonder list) that the other continent is ahead on the top of the tech tree. They have also done work on the middle. The bottom of the tech tree remains a mystery. I do, however, take it as a good sign that Islam has not been founded, yet.

But, if we see messages about the Taj Mahal or Liberalism, we're probably in trouble.

Originally Posted by Provolution

I suggest we start with Compass, and now explore the naval route.

I would agree with Compass (and Optics, too). These two techs are much, much more important than any of the others being discussed. Meeting the civs on the other continent needs to become a major priority. If not, you run the risk of becoming so far behind in tech that you have nothing of value to trade.

[mike6426]

I viewed the previous poll (see below) "winning" Guilds a sign that the populus wanted Guilds next, and with it, banking. I seemed to forget to finish Printing Press, so I am just finishing that one up before I forget (again). Also, I am (against my wishes) researching monotheism in one of the next three techs, depending on how long it would take, because of the religion poll.

Originally Posted by Provolution

I think PP and Monotheism pulls rank, since these are already close to completion or polled, whereas Guilds is barely discussed and not even yet polled.

In here http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=228554 a lot of the people wanted guilds after feudalism, I believe that it still pertains now, as it was the tech being researched (and it was the poll to see what the research should be) before the chat was ended on account of the longbowman with 3 city defense. In fact, I believe that it would have been finished (or as close as PP is) if the turnchat was not ended.

[Provolution]

Then I may ask for repolling that, as the situation has changed, to get monotheism sooner than later? We are planning a revolution in 5 turns you see, and Organized Religion is part of that revolution.

[Provolution]

I think we should research Monotheism at once. Even the delay of researching Guilds is justified, since the delay of building knights and grocers would more than offset the losses we would take if there is no civic change immediately after Berlin. Other citizens feel the same way.

At this point I see no choice but to poll http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=230103 the decision, since it is clear that the Chief Scientist is not interested in citizen involvement.

Moderator Action: I'm seeing a lot of these double posts within just a few minutes, with similar content. The edit button is available for this purpose. Two posts responding to different points are ok btw. Dave

[DaveShack]

Originally Posted by Provolution

I think we should research Monotheism at once. Even the delay of researching Guilds is justified, since the delay of building knights and grocers would more than offset the losses we would take if there is no civic change immediately after Berlin. Other citizens feel the same way.

At this point I see no choice but to poll http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=230103 the decision, since it is clear that the Chief Scientist is not interested in citizen involvement.

Originally Posted by mike6426

Also, I am (against my wishes) researching monotheism in one of the next three techs, depending on how long it would take, because of the religion poll.

Looks like agreement to research monotheism.

[Provolution]

it should be one of the next two techs, or we don't make it to the imminent civic change when we are pacifying Berlin, which is the entire plan, 6 turns later than that would not do. It should be one of the next two techs, which is easily done, with PP taking one turn and Monotheism taking two turns. This is most rational.

[dutchfire]

Printing Press -> (Monotheism ->) Guilds -> Banking

[Joe Harker]

Welcome back dutchfire!

Again PP, monthesim, don't worry, only one turn, Guilds and banking.

[Provolution]

PP and Monotheism are 3 turns all together, and thus, no disaster.