Quick question about aircraft

[Steph]

when reading what I did with US, it seems I perhaps made a mistake

I've made
- Fighter A/D : 6/3
- Fighter bomber A/D: 5/5
- Bomber : A/D 0/4

But on second thought, it doesn't seem good because the fighter bomber is better at intercepting than the fighter

Just to be sure, when an aircraft intercept another, what is compared?

A of bombing against D of defending?

So, what would be the likely result of
- My fighter bomber intercepting my fighter?
- My fighter intercepting my fighter bomber?
- My fighter bomber intercepting my fighter bomber?
- My fighter intercepting my fighter?
- My fighter intercepting my bomber?
- My fighter bomber intercepting my bomber?

[jatibi]

maybe this can help you

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=125337

[Steph]

Ok thanks, so it's interceptor attack against bomber defense, it seems I did it right then, I had a strong doubt.

However, if we have 6/3 for fighter, it means if we try to use it to "lure" ennemy fighters by bombing first with it, so the bombers can come after, the "escort" fighter will have 3 vs 6 chance to win.

Wouldn't it be better to have
Figther 6/6
Fighter bomber 3/3
Bombe 0/3?

So fighter vs fighter are roughly equal, but a fighter intercepting a bomber has good chance to damage it?

[Phlegmak]

Originally Posted by Steph

Ok thanks, so it's interceptor attack against bomber defense, it seems I did it right then, I had a strong doubt.

However, if we have 6/3 for fighter, it means if we try to use it to "lure" ennemy fighters by bombing first with it, so the bombers can come after, the "escort" fighter will have 3 vs 6 chance to win.

Wouldn't it be better to have
Figther 6/6
Fighter bomber 3/3
Bombe 0/3?

So fighter vs fighter are roughly equal, but a fighter intercepting a bomber has good chance to damage it?

Yes, it would be better.

[BadKharma]

Originally Posted by Steph

Ok thanks, so it's interceptor attack against bomber defense, it seems I did it right then, I had a strong doubt.

However, if we have 6/3 for fighter, it means if we try to use it to "lure" ennemy fighters by bombing first with it, so the bombers can come after, the "escort" fighter will have 3 vs 6 chance to win.

Wouldn't it be better to have
Figther 6/6
Fighter bomber 3/3
Bombe 0/3?

So fighter vs fighter are roughly equal, but a fighter intercepting a bomber has good chance to damage it?

That is actually a very tricky thing.....because some aircraft that can be classified as a FB are actually very good fighters with a capacity to carry a larger payload.

[Steph]

I know, that's why the aircrafts are usually quite different between civ.

However, when used as a FB, they cannot carry as many AA missiles as when used as a interceptor.
So it makes sense to have the defense less than attack for FB: they are less likely to win air superiority, if used for bombing than for interception.
On the other hand, the fighters have a good A, and a D which is a bit lower, because if they engage the ennemy over is land to gain air superiority, they do it a longer range (less time on target), and without ground radar help.

Sp, the result will be something like:
Fighter : 6/5
Fighter bomber: 4/2

--> A fighter intercepting a FB will have 6 vs 2 = 75% win
--> A figher intercepting another fighter will have 6 vs 5 = 55% win
--> A FB intercepting a fighter will have 4 vs 5 = 45% win
--> A FB intercepting another FB will have 4 vs 2 = 66% win

This way, if you attack first with fighter or FB as escort, you have a good chance (about half) to win against ennemy aircraft.
If you attack with FB and are intercepted without escort, then you have only 25 to 33% chance to win.

And regarding interception, if you use fighter, you can win with 55 to 75% of success. If you use FB as interceptor, you win with 45 - 66% chance of success.

I think it gives a good representation of the respective roles of the aircraft

[Phlegmak]

Just an FYI. Hitpoints change your % chance of victories in battles. Let's look at an example.

You got a Civ 3 horseman vs. a Civ 3 horseman.
A/D=2/1
Both have 2 hitpoints.

Let's only look at the % chance of victory of the attacker vs. the defender.
So the % chance of horseman 1 hitting horseman 2 is 66%. Each time it's 66%. I drew a graph showing victories and losses and the probability that the attacker will win the battle is 20/27. The probability for the defender to win is 7/20. 20/27 = 74% so 7/20 = 26%.

It's the hitpoints that change the overall result of the battle from just a simple 2 out of 3.

(I changed the hitpoints to just 2 to make my tree simple. I'm trying to come up with a formula.)

[Phlegmak]

I came up with a way of making a table to calculate probabilities of the attacker winning vs. the defender. However, I have not come up with a nice formula to do this. I don't feel like making a program to do this right now.

Steph, your % chance of victories you mention are not perfect, but they're adequately close. It starts becoming badly skewed when the attacker or defender has a large difference of hitpoints vs. his opponent. For example, let's say you have an attacker with a att of 2 vs. a defender with a def of 1. The attacker has 1 hit point remaining and the defender has 5 hit points remaining. The defender has a much better chance of surviving.

[Steph]

I know that HP have a large impact, but my exemple was just for "all other things being equal"

[cemo1956]

Sorry bumbing in, but would the AI build any FB at all. It probably goes as with ground unit best attacker, then best defense.

A learned that unit 1 with A5/D3 , unit 2 with A4/D4 and unit 3 with A3/D5 would result that unit 2 wasn´t built. That is if all other things are the same.

Only shot for this would be a clearly diveded tech creation line or that the FB is created before the fighter, or something with resources.
Whatever Steph, consider the AI for what it is.

Cemo

[Steph]

The FB has much better bombing rate than the fighter, so I guess the AI will make both.
Fighter for defense, fighter bomber for attack.

Anyway, the AI is dumb! Play against human in multiplayer!

And try America against Rome if you want a real challenge in early game

[cemo1956]

Yes, but you included the bomber like B-52 and Stealth bomber types didn´t you Steph.

FB, fighter and heavy bomber.
If nothing special is setup the AI will only make the best of fighting and bombing, so that´s why I guess the FB will not be made.
Perhaps very high price and some special resource for the heavy bomber (B-52 style) would help exclude this variant in many Air Forces.
As it may most airforces today don´t have heavy bombers, guess only US, Russia, China, Great Britain.