Need advice again - Celts, no iron!, Forbidden Palace?...

[Onipsi]

I'd appreciate some advice in this game...

Celts
Difficulty: Regent
World: Large, Continents, 60% Water, Wet, Temperate, 5 Billion Years
Opponents I've met: Ottomans, Greece, Byzantines, Inca/Maya (can't remember which one)

I've got an excellent food-rich starting spot, but there's NO IRON visible in my continent so far. I'm almost sure the Ottomans (closest neighbors) don't have it either. I was expecting to invade them with Gallic Swordsmen, but now I'm just building Archers, Horsemen and one Spearman or two to defend while attacking.
I'm a little lost. Should I begin "colonizing" other continents (previewing the possibility that there's really no iron)?

Also, again, I don't know where to build the Forbidden Palace. I've read the article and many discussions about FP placement, and I find this too confusing, too many variables to account, even though I know the priority is to build it as soon as possible - however, it seems that a good placement is very important in some cases (to avoid messing with rank corruption in core cities or something), and I don't know if this applies here. I'd appreciate some help with this.

And lastly, is there a better way to improve the settler factory area (Entremont and Alesia)? I'm still starting to learn how to setup such a thing, and that place looks TOO GOOD to have simple 4-turn ones... there are a lot of cattle, forests and bonus grasslands over there. Until now, both cities are 4-turn settler factories, but there's a lot of unworked tiles, maybe there is a better way to setup those cities that I'm missing...?

Below are 2 screenshots and the save file. Thanks in advance

Spoiler for Empire map and expansion plans:

[MAS]

In vanilla and PTW, yes In conquest, its position is far less important, you must have read old articles that talk about pre-conquest that confuse you.
Also, ring city placement is useless in conquest. I'd ignore those pretty rings you've mapped out in the lower screen shot and just build the cities where they get the most value from the land around them. No need to place all of them with 2 tiles in between.

[Onipsi]

Originally Posted by MAS

In vanilla and PTW, yes In conquest, its position is far less important, you must have read old articles that talk about pre-conquest that confuse you.
Also, ring city placement is useless in conquest. I'd ignore those pretty rings you've mapped out in the lower screen shot and just build the cities where they get the most value from the land around them. No need to place all of them with 2 tiles in between.

Actually, all the threads and articles I've read relate to C3C. They still take into account the position at some point (here and here are examples). There are some cases when a FP would raise the rank corruption in the core, but I'm not sure if I understand all this. About the rings, I'm taking distance corruption into account, not exactly following ring city placement. The lower screenshot is from CivAssist II, which calculates the distance corruption that one could expect from a planned city. Since CA2 recognizes C3C, I'd assume its corruption calculations are accurate, unless I'm missing something.

2 tiles spacing is just an attempt to work as many tiles as possible, not really to handle corruption.

Now I'm more confused... Thanks for the reply, though.

[Tone]

Just to echo MAS' post, the position of the FP is far less important. Yes some thought can be put into it (a lot if you really want) but the most important thing is to have asap it to increase the OCN. If you can build it away from your capital in the direction of most likely expansion all the better. I'd build it in Rich. or Lug. personally but wherever you choose to place it, I'd get building now.

It's true that you have no iron in sight but there is still plenty of land to explore before talking about other continents. (Couldn't some more of those military units have been exploring a bit earlier?)

OK, so you want gallics but for now you are ready to roll over the Ottomans. They may have iron outside their borders somewhere in the south for all you know, and if they don't then maybe the next victim will. What they do have is two lux sources that your citiies might soon find useful. They don't have any strategic resources so they are not going to stand up to your military strength. You may as well use some of those units anyway because they are going to cost you more than 30gpt when you get into Monarchy, and that's without taking account of all those other units that you have coming along in the next few turns.

I think that you are in an excellent postion to take over this whole continent. It would be very unusual not have iron somewhere on it but if you don't, then you'll be so strong that you can find it on another continent and take it from whomever you choose.

[Delphi456]

Learn the value of catapults and tribuchets.

[MAS]

Build the FP in Lugdunum or Gergovia.

If you look at the screenshot provided by WackenOpenAir in your first link, you will see he didn't use ring city placement.
Yes, you can still manage corruption by watching city placement carefully, but not the same way as in vanilla or PTW.
The FP increases your OCN, and it reduces distance corruption a little bit, but it doesn't create a new 0 point for rank corruption.

There is indeed a better way to set up the settler factory area, for starters, you've build cities one tile away from the coast. A waste of the coastal tiles, as they can now no longer be improved. You also missed a chance to make a core coastal city that can build ships quickly and provide a lot of commerce.
Most probably you did this to make sure all cities had 2 tile distances between them, and to keep them in a ring. But as I said, that is no longer important in C3C.

[Onipsi]

Originally Posted by MAS

There is indeed a better way to set up the settler factory area, for starters, you've build cities one tile away from the coast. A waste of the coastal tiles, as they can now no longer be improved. You also missed a chance to make a core coastal city that can build ships quickly and provide a lot of commerce.
Most probably you did this to make sure all cities had 2 tile distances between them, and to keep them in a ring. But as I said, that is no longer important in C3C.

As I said before, I'm not really looking into ring city placement. The CxxC structure is meant to work all the tiles earlier (and also provide a faster troop movement). I know that there are other approaches (such as the one from the screenshot you've mentioned), maybe I should get more into them. However, Alesia wasn't placed for a ring, instead I tried to place it so it would work as far as it could, but still with 2 cattle just like Entremont. I wanted to setup 2 4-turn settler factories (and I forgot the agricultural bonus ), and the cattles were all condensed there. But what I meant by setting up better, I was talking about better settler factories, that would produce more units in a given period for example.

About coastal core cities, I don't know, there are many coastal cities (one of them was the 3rd founded city), so, what do you mean by missing core coastal cities? Are you talking about Richborough?

You see, could it be that maybe it's just that CxxC placement will probably end up looking like ring city placement? But the main point is that distance corruption was only considered by me in the last "rings", and it was the less considered. I think you're saying that I should completely drop this concern, but could you please explain why the distance is no longer important in C3C? Maybe Richborough could be better placed in the coast, but CA2 tells me that if it was placed more into the west, I should expect twice more corruption and waste than it currently has. Is it possible that such a difference wouldn't matter in the long run with courthouses, police stations, the FP and such, and that's what you mean by saying this is no longer important? This is exactly the part I don't understand from all the discussions here in CFC.

Thanks for your replies so far, I appreciate them. I'm just trying to understand some things. Also, thanks for the FP suggestions.

Originally Posted by Delphi456

Learn the value of catapults and tribuchets.

True, I'm aware of that, it's just that at the time I was building the troops I didn't have maths yet, since I was going to get monarchy. I don't think catapults/trebuchets are really needed for now though, the Ottomans are very weak. But indeed they will be built a lot in the near future. Thanks!

Originally Posted by Tone

Just to echo MAS' post, the position of the FP is far less important. Yes some thought can be put into it (a lot if you really want) but the most important thing is to have asap it to increase the OCN. If you can build it away from your capital in the direction of most likely expansion all the better. I'd build it in Rich. or Lug. personally but wherever you choose to place it, I'd get building now.

Thanks for the FP suggestions. Please refer to my questions to MAS, I'd appreciate some input.

It's true I should have explored the continent earlier. In fact I was exploring it since the first warrior was built in Entremont, but I guess I didn't do it in an optimal way.

Also thanks for the invading suggestions, I tend to wait too much before making the first move to war, maybe that gpt would be a lot higher because I probably would wait a little more, then the Ottomans would be a little more powerful, then I would build more units to surpass that, then the cycle would go on...

[MAS]

Originally Posted by Onipsi

About coastal core cities, I don't know, there are many coastal cities (one of them was the 3rd founded city), so, what do you mean by missing core coastal cities? Are you talking about Richborough?

When I said "missing core coastal city" I was still talking about that same one city that is one tile away from the coast.

but could you please explain why the distance is no longer important in C3C?

Maybe Richborough could be better placed in the coast, but CA2 tells me that if it was placed more into the west, I should expect twice more corruption and waste than it currently has.

The city corruption is effected by 3 things:
#1 Direct distance from the capital (closer to the capital means les corruption)
#2 rank. (lower rank means less corruption) <--This is the most important factor!
#3 Optimal City Number. This factor is only important for those cities with a rank beyond the OCN. Cities with a rank beyond the OCN will get an extra high corruption.

The rank is also determined by the distance from the capital, the ones closest to it have the lowest rank.
In vanilla and PTW, if multiple cities are at the same distance, they all get the same rank.
So if there are 4 cities in ring 1 all at the same distance, they all get rank 1 But the next closest city(s) gets rank 5.

In C3C, if multiple cities are at the same distance, then rank gets assigned among those cities depending on founding order.
So the 4 cities mentioned in my example above will get rank 1,2,3,4 and the 5th will still get rank 5.
If you where to place city 1 (counting capital as 0 ) at distance 3 and you place city 2 at distance 2 in the opposite direction. Then obviously, city 1 will be re-assigned rank 2, cause city 2 is closer.
If you have 4 cities at distance 2, then the last one founded will have the highest rank, but if you where to move one of these cities to distance 3, it would get rank 4, even if it was the first city founded.

In Vanilla and PTW, the FP would do the following 3 things:
#1 It doubles OCN.
#2 It creates a new place to calculate distance corruption from.
#3 It creates a new core with the FP itself being a second city of rank 0.

In C3C, the FP only does #1 and #2, but no longer #3. In addition, it reduces the corruption cap by 70%. Where it is normally 90%, its now 20%!
The Effect of #2 is minimal, you'd only notice it on cities closest to it, and then only if those cities had a relatively low rank to begin with. Thats why it helps to build th city in the direction you are expanding. (assuming asymmetric expansion, but thats usually the case)

The reason why WOA in his example in the first link you provided didn't want to settle the tundra to the left side, is because this is closer to the capital than the grassland to the right side, planting cities there would give the grassland cities a higher rank.

So to make a long story short: in C3C You can no longer manipulate rank by putting cities in rings, if you try, they all get assigned their unique rank anyway based on founding date.


Some additional corruption and waste information:

Corruption = red commerce
waste = red production shields

Courthouses do 2 things. (in C3C)
#1 They reduce the distance factor for both corruption and waste, but this is only noticeable in cities that have a relatively low rank as well.
#2 they decrease the cap or both corruption and waste by 10% Where it is normally 90%, with a courthouse it is 80%. (and 10% in the FP city)

Police stations do 2 things. (C3C)
#1 They reduce the distance factor for corruption but not waste, but this is only noticeable in cities that have a relatively low rank as well.
#2 they decrease the cap or both corruption and waste by 10% Where it is normally 80% with a courthouse, it is 70% with both a courthouse and police station. (and 0% in the FP city)

A we love the leader day reduces the distance factor for waste but not commerce, same story again, only noticeable in relatively low rank cities.

Connecting a city to your trade network lowers distance corruption.

Government choice also effect distance corruption. (But Communism is special.)

[shinsei]

Learning from this thread as well~~

Just curious,how did those screen shots made?i notice that map is at the upperleft corner while its suppose to be at buttomleft,and whats up with does color circle under the units and terrain?

[shinsei]

This whole corrupt system is so complicated... anything for beginners?the things you guys mentioned is too hard for newbie like me to understand

[gmaharriet]

Originally Posted by shinsei

This whole corrupt system is so complicated... anything for beginners?the things you guys mentioned is too hard for newbie like me to understand

The most simple explanation for a beginner is that cities built close to your capital will have the least corruption, and building the Forbidden Palace increases the number of cities in your empire that will have fairly low corruption. Once you get that part, then you can begin learning more about managing corruption.

[shinsei]

No wonder i had corruption that high even when i'm in democracy,that explain the reason,i never had forbidden palace built until i have another continent dominated,because of the false civilopedia discription about forbidden palace act as captiol,and i thought it would be a waste to built too close to my capitol.so the distant doesn't matter right?the surrending cities gets no benifit from forbidden palace?

[gmaharriet]

Originally Posted by shinsei

.so the distant doesn't matter right?the surrending cities gets no benifit from forbidden palace?

Distance doesn't matter very much if you're playing Conquests. If you're playing vanilla or PTW, yes it matters very much and the "simple answer" is no longer simple, and you have to study those complicated explanations.

[shinsei]

i'm playing conquest~

[shinsei]

By the way how can you tell the total number of your empire's production?i was reading something related to corruption from the "recovering from last place" thread.

Another great leader appears from combat. Decide to take the risk and jump the palace to the Incense city (just off to left of above screenshot). Corruption decreases from 84 to 50 per turn. Production increases from 197 to 211 megaton. I wish the new location was farther away, to improve the effect of the palace rank exploit but it is not. Japan will build another palace later.

[Othniel]

Originally Posted by shinsei

By the way how can you tell the total number of your empire's production?

Go to the F11 demographics screen and compare from turn to turn.

[Onipsi]

MAS, thank you very much for the detailed information. The examples you included have helped me a lot. I guess now I know what the whole discussion is about.

Originally Posted by shinsei

Just curious,how did those screen shots made?i notice that map is at the upperleft corner while its suppose to be at buttomleft,and whats up with does color circle under the units and terrain?

I like editing screenshots. In case you don't know, you take one by pressing the "Print Screen" button in-game and then pasting the image in an image editor (or by using screenshot utilities like this one).
About the 1st image you mentioned, I pressed "Del" so the game interface would hide itself, then took a screenshot, then took another one from the Military Advisor screen, which has a minimap too. Then all I did was a cut-and-paste from one image to another in the image editor. That's just to make a smaller image without having the minimap in front of any of my cities.

Now the 2nd one was taken using CivAssist 2, the tool I mentioned to you in one of your threads. The numbered elypses are the "Distance Corruption Ring" feature in its world map tool. By the way, I don't think I'll be using that feature so much from now on.

Edit: oh, but the cyan borderlines were done by me in an image editor, not by CA2.

[shinsei]

Cool!I like your style of screen editing