Sumerian Spymasters?

[braindrain]

Ok at first glance, Sumeria seems a bit lack-luster... a decent uu, but with imo crappy traits (creative/protective) and a ub that looks pretty lame at first glance.... unill i realized that you can build the ziggurat (courthouse) with only priesthood instead of code of laws...this is huge! This blows the doors wide open for sumeria in the early game.

First of all, one can forget the oracle/col slingshot...no longer needed. If you still decide to go for the oracle, you can pick up the more powerful metal casting and get early forges and colossus...or better yet you can use all those hammers and time to build more cities and troops, especially the nasty vulture.

Second of all, one can forget the great wall...spy points are easier to get with the early courthouse. farm up a little and add a spy specialist and watch those spy points roll in...long before anyone else can dream and without having to spend precious early production on wonders. The early boost in spy points works to keep enemy spys out and to boost your own spies against your rivals.

So with only piesthood, an important and early tech for almost any strategy, you can cut way down on corruption and get a big head start on spy points... i can't think of any other ub in the game that has such drastic effects on the game, not only in the upfront bonuses, but also the more indirect ability to avoid wonder building too soon in the game. It can allow you to build more settlers and more workers and more troops quickly and still have the bonus to fight corruption and pile up those important spy points.

now, if i could only get used to crative/protective...both can be handy, but far from awsome haha

[Gyprsn]

When people are actively spying on me they wonder why it's so expensive towards me. Only a couple people have openly admitted this, but I have no doubt it was because of ziggurats. And I agree, I love playing as Sumer, it's UU and UB are great, however, the traits aren't. I mean, creative is convenient...And Protective can be too...but I rarely plan strategies aroudn the two traits.

[MagisterCultuum]

Then why don't you just use unrestricted leaders?

[Thedrin]

Frederick of the Sumerians; half price ziggurats and double the great spy points.
Hammurabi of the Sumerians; half price ziggurats and combat I vultures.
Roosevelt of the Sumerians; half price ziggurats and half price Great Wall.

I haven't got around to Gilgamesh but I'm looking forward to it. I enjoy both of his traits. I use unrestricted leaders but I imagine that if I was assigned Gilgamesh of the Sumerians that I'd use protective (like I always do) for strong crossbow armies. Creative is just my favourite trait so I'd be glad to have it.

[Gyprsn]

Originally Posted by Thedrin

Hammurabi of the Sumerians; half price ziggurats and combat I vultures.

So far I've enjoyed this one the most.

[Brancaleone]

Sumeria is my favourite civilization in BTS. Vultures suck, though.

But Ziggurats are awesome. And Gilgamesh looks really cool . I like to play tematic games against Hammurabi, Ramses and others ancient leaders.

[Datian]

I just played Napoleon with the Sumerians, organized and early, cheap courthouses... I only noticed a slight shiver in my economy after getting a seventh city with my vulture rush

[bonafide11]

I haven't played with Sumeria yet, but I don't find their traits to be bad at all. But how can you say vultures suck? They look pretty good to me...

[mice]

Originally Posted by bonafide11

But how can you say vultures suck? They look pretty good to me...

Yea, the AI is fielding more early melee these days so the Vulture is powerful.

[Thedrin]

Mice:
Yea, the AI is fielding more early melee these days so the Vulture is powerful.

Isn't that the situation in which it's weakest? Vulture is as good as an axeman against other melee units but fares worse against an axeman than other axemen.

[Gyprsn]

Originally Posted by Thedrin

Isn't that the situation in which it's weakest? Vulture is as good as an axeman against other melee units but fares worse against an axeman than other axemen.

It's also less vulnerable to chariots, and is better for taking cities than an axeman, and cheaper than a swordsman. I like the vulture, the +1 strength has really made a difference in many of my games. Vultures with CR promotions make it easier to take cities, and this is a must if you have no iron available, which happens sometimes, even if you have no real way of predicting it.

But I will say that the reason I first played as Sumeria, and the only reason that will probably keep me playing as them is not the Vulture, but the Ziggurat, the vulture is just an added bonus for me when I'm Sumer.

[Thedrin]

Yes, I know all of that. I was refering to the situation in which the AI field more melee units, in which case it is no better or weaker than the unit it replaces.

[Bjorn190]

Id like to play roosevelt of sumer

Beeline priesthood while building Gwall, oracle for monarchy, then supercharge your empire with population, cities and spy points.. take what you can, steal what you lack, and outgrow every neighbour

[Pikkis]

Originally Posted by Thedrin

Roosevelt of the Sumerians; half price ziggurats and half price Great Wall.

Isn't it +50% faster wonder building, so it's 2/3 price, not half price.

About Sumeria, I once used it, and with 3 ziggurat cities I din't need much time to have more espionage icon towards every civ (and I played with Huge map and 10 civs).

[Gyprsn]

Originally Posted by Pikkis

Isn't it +50% faster wonder building, so it's 2/3 price, not half price.

I don't understand why it would be 2/3 price?

[Zetetic Apparat]

If you're building something at 100%+50% rate, it'll take the same time as building something with 1/(100%+50%) of the cost.

1/1.5 = 2/3.

[Gyprsn]

Originally Posted by Zetetic Apparat

If you're building something at 100%+50% rate, it'll take the same time as building something with 1/(100%+50%) of the cost.

1/1.5 = 2/3.

I understand that...But where does the +100% come from? The only thing that I see is the +50% from industrious? What increases wonder production another 100%?

[Zetetic Apparat]

You're already producing wonders at 100%, if you're not industrious. Industrious leaders produce wonders at 150% of the normal rate. (100% of the normal rate == the normal rate.)

[Gyprsn]

Originally Posted by Zetetic Apparat

You're already producing wonders at 100%, if you're not industrious. Industrious leaders produce wonders at 150% of the normal rate. (100% of the normal rate == the normal rate.)

No...I don't think that's right. That's a mighty big fallacy.

And your math is off, the 1.5 doesn't go into the denominator, it would go into the numerator. so it would be 150/100 not 100/150. So that means you would get
3/2 which is +1/2 more than 100/100 = 1/1 or 2/2 for comparative purposes.

And, if you are right, that also means that every trait, not just industrious, gives 2/3 price decreases, which I don't think is the case.

EDIT: I missed the bad math earlier, so I guess I kind of lied when I said I understood it. It's just a case of putting the 1.5 in the wrong spot, and then preceding with bad calculations and logic. If you have an advantage, 1/1.5 doesn't make sense because that would = a disadvantage, and the base 100% was never subtracted to find the overall benefit.

[Zetetic Apparat]

What? Why is it a fallacy that normal rate of wonder production == 100% of normal wonder production?


Okay, say you have a city with 100 per turn and building a wonder in that city.
Now say that you're industrious; it's effective production is [150% x (100 per turn)], which equals [150/turn].

Say the wonder requires 1000 to build.
If you're not industrious, then it'll take [1000 / (100/turn)], which equals 10 turns.
If you are industrious, it'll take [1000 / (150/turn)], which equals 6.66… turns; or [10 turns x 2/3].

A wonder that would take a non-industrious leader 6.66… turns to produce in that city, would cost [6.66 turns x (100/turn)],
which equals 66.6… or [2/3 x 100].

Hope the units and implied unit algebra helps make it more obvious.