angel vs demon

[DarthCycle]

I'm a little confused in regards to the angel and demon promotion

In 2.023c, I don't clearly understand the combat mechanic between these 2 races, it seems the angel have a good advantage as it is.

Demon (promotion) are -50% resistance against holy, this would translates in a unit receiving greater damage from holy damage type, right?

Angel (promotion) have +50% resistance against death, but no bonus against unholy, right?

So Angel promotion inflects greater damage to unit with demon promotion, but demon promotion inflects normal damage to unit with angel promotion, is this correct?

How was this setup balanced, especially for basium vs infernal ? What advantage does the infernal receives to compensate this (pretty hefty) combat penalty against basium units?

[mindlar]

It isn't really balanced for basium vs. infernal on a unit by unit basis. Hyborem is one of the hardest civilizations to play as and basium's units getting a bonus against them makes a difference.

Things that Hyborem gets that help even it out are sheut stones and nightmares. On mounted units that contributes to +2 strength and on all others +1 strength.

Hyborem also benefits much more from an increased AC, which is very easy for Hyborem to run up as every city he takes or builds will raise the counter.

[Nikis-Knight]

Hyborem also benefits much more from an increased AC, which is very easy for Hyborem to run up as every city he takes or builds will raise the counter.

specifically, most of his units start with stigmata, meaning at AC 100, they will get +50% bonus, scaling accordingly. And none of his units will die from apocalypse at AC 100.
Also of note, Hyborem, the hero, starts with immortal.
And he has the summoner trait. Angels are easy to kill if they just fought 3 sand lions.

[onedreamer]

but most importantly Hyborem doesn't HAVE TO declare war to anyone, it's not bound to another civ, and he can build good units with proper techs and resources, Basium has a very limited choice in this and Angels only have strength 5 and can only be upgraded with ungodly amounts of experience (which is hard to come by when you are so low on strength) whereas Hyborem has no problems in building units of 6-7 strength or more.
I totally disagree that Hyborem is one of the hardest civs to play... although that applies nicely to Basium IMHO.

[Pocus]

After Apocalypse (AC 100), nothing more happen by the way? Like anothe rmini-apoc every 10 AC increase?

[MagisterCultuum]

You cannot have mini-apocalypse for each 10 AC increase over 100; there is nothing over 100. The AC is a percentage of how high it can possible become.

Personally I think that the game should end as soon as it hits 100, with everyone loosing. Or more precisely, with a Barbarian victory. This change should follow the addition of an AV ritual that forges a Permanent Alliance between the builder and the Barbarian State. The ritual should probably require a very high AC (~90-95) to begin and an earlier AV ritual that merely make peace with the barbs (like the pre-AC Avatar of Wrath's ritual used to do). They should probably make it harder to get the AV that high if this is implemented.

[Calavente]

technically, AV players should not loose with a 100AC. their aim IS a high AC. I do not say that it should make them win, but they, at least should not loose.
An idea to make reaching the 100AC worthwhile :

_maybe make it so that with a 100AC they can begin a ritual (as of avatar of wrath in FFH1 or early FFH2) that summons a powerful demonic army. (A space-ship kind victory) and either just a space ship victory, or realy placing the units in the game and victory on the following turn.

_or even allowing Order AND AV to make each their kind of ritual (allowing the return of their favorite Angel) so it means that it becomes a kind of space ship race that starts at with the 100AC. and the aim is to invoke it's armaggedon armys first. (with the untold fact that the AA is always powerful enough to win in 1 turn)

_this would work better (IMO) if :
1) after 90AC, nobody can change state religion save going 1up or 1down, and each change rising the counter : (AV and Order cannot be quitted)
AV<-OO<->F, OO<-fellow->RoK, F<->RoK->Order
2) on AC 95 : all Order civ becomes allies or vassal to the most powerful Order civ/Basium, all AV civ become either allies, or vassals to the most powerful AV civ /or Hyborem (allies being more realistic, but vassal would prevent a cheap player from joing the war at the last moment and be considered winning).
3) Ai chooses its 90AC religion change based to relation with the most powerful Order /AV civ, and its own chances to reach another victory condition.

--> this would force the player to
1) choose is camp quickly.
2) go neutral (OO, Fellowship, RoK) and sabotage both teams while running for another victory (Altar or Towers)

[MagisterCultuum]

Sounds too complicated to me. Mine was much simpler to implement and made more sense.

Also, AV civs don't lose, they win, unless they are too weak or too stupid to solidify their alignment with Argares in time. There wouldn't be a world limit on the ritual, so all AV players should build it or face the consequences (or should I say and face the consequences, since if the AC is driven back down then they are out off luck, since they're at war with everyone and the AC events like Armageddon Heroes' spawning won't happen again).

I think the Ashen Veil's followers know that, if they can't keep their masters' favor, then they are damned along with the rest of the world.

[Calavente]

I won't go far into this but :

at first our two idea have the same goal : AC100 gives victory to an AV civ.
and are equally simple (look only at the first idea) (AC100 : AV can built a "wonder/ritual" that gives it victory after completion)

then I remembered that good civs may also want to bring GOD back into the world so they may make use of a high AC. (second idea in my post)

after that I tried to flesh it out, give it more FfH lore (second idea : armaggeddon armies instead of "spaceship") and try to make it a worthwhile victory and not a default one as "AC=100, owner of XXX wonder-ritual wins" (third part of the post: here it become a mit complicated as searching balancing mecanics is difficult to explain and I was never known to be the man who explains things clearly )

Cala.

[Rex rgis of Ter]

Not to be a necromancer or anything, but I think it's supposed to be like that. Basium is there to kill demons, but Hyborem is just there to kill everyone. He doesn't really need to get an advantage, because he's here to kill everyone, humans, dwarves, elves, and everyone else.

[kenken244]

and besides, if they got the same boni cversus eachother they would cancel eachother out and the boni would be worth nothing