Very pleased with my recent loss...shows AI improvement

[futurehermit]

Ok, I thought I had this game completely in hand. Monarch/Normal. I had wiped out Hannibal and Freddy and had control of my large continent. I wiped out Joao and since Shaka was putting major cultural pressure on them, I gave the cities over to him. I had built the apollo and space elevator and could build the space parts at my leisure--no one could beat me to it. I was at war with Brennus 10% away from dom victory. I had built the UN and could vote myself the winner pretty much. I was way ahead on tech and could squash Toku and Shaka to get conquest. In short: I could win pretty much however I wanted.

But I lost.

Giving Shaka those cities cost me the game. Why? Because they were Hindu cities and he had control of the AP. I didn't notice but Toku had volutarily vassalized to Shaka. To my horror, Shaka called for a diplo victory via the AP and Toku voted for him. Since I had next to no cities with Hindu in them I couldn't do anything about it.

I'm impressed with the AI here. It's another thing to watch out for. This was ca. 1920AD.

[Realyn]

Correct me if im wrong, but if u build the UN the AP should get destroyed ?!

[Zaij]

Nope, I've seen both continue through the entire game.

[Charles Martel]

Originally Posted by futurehermit

Giving Shaka those cities cost me the game. Why? Because they were Hindu cities and he had control of the AP. I didn't notice but Toku had volutarily vassalized to Shaka. To my horror, Shaka called for a diplo victory via the AP and Toku voted for him. Since I had next to no cities with Hindu in them I couldn't do anything about it.

That's a lousy way of losing. I find nothing pleasing about it. It only confirms my suspicion that the AP is badly designed.

That doesn't show that the AI has improved. All it shows is that religious victory is too easy, and that you haven't paid enough attention to preventing the AI from achieving such an easy and largely accidental victory.

[mice]

AP obsoletes only when the civ that owns it researches Mass Media.

I build that thing and take control of the votes in all my games now if I can.
It adds a great layer of intrigue.

Originally Posted by Chales Martel

That doesn't show that the AI has improved. All it shows is that religious victory is too easy, and that you haven't paid enough attention to preventing the AI from achieving such an easy and largely accidental victory.

I don't know that it was accidental. If Future had been hitting F8/members a bit more he could have grabbed the relevant religion and spammed it in his own cities. If the situation was still dangerous, a war could have sorted it out.

[Thyrwyn]

Gifting Mass Media to the owner of the AP would have worked, too. . .

[mice]

Originally Posted by Thyrwyn

Gifting Mass Media to the owner of the AP would have worked, too. . .

Good trick. Thank you.

[pi-r8]

Wow the AP sounds absolutely horrible. It's like

Leader: "Bwa ha ha ha ha ha! No one can stop me now! I have only one rival left!"
Henchmen: "Excuse me sir, but the Zulus have just voted themselves as world leader."
Leader: "What! The have only 3 cities! I was about to nuke them into oblivion!"
Henchamn "Yes, but they are hindu, and our hindu citizens of Podunksville (pop 1) love them. I am afraid that they are now your supreme overlord."

[frob2900]

Originally Posted by futurehermit

I was at war with Brennus 10% away from dom victory. I had built the UN and could vote myself the winner pretty much. I was way ahead on tech and could squash Toku and Shaka to get conquest. In short: I could win pretty much however I wanted.

...

Giving Shaka those cities cost me the game. Why? Because they were Hindu cities and he had control of the AP. I didn't notice but Toku had volutarily vassalized to Shaka. To my horror, Shaka called for a diplo victory via the AP and Toku voted for him. Since I had next to no cities with Hindu in them I couldn't do anything about it.

So you'd recommend players to add "Burn/destroy/raze the AP ASAP" to their playbook?

[carl corey]

That actually sounds like a broken mechanism... I wonder what happens if I vassalize everyone on my continent (all Jewish) and build the Apostolic Palace. Do the vassals have to vote for me?! If so, it's gonna be a very easy victory...

Also, what happens if someone on the other continent builds the AP and the other guys vote him? Does he win?! Even if our continent has the larger population, even if we don't even know who they are?!

And what if you're the only one with a certain religion?!

Needless to say, I'm very puzzled by this new wonder.

[frob2900]

Originally Posted by carl corey

Also, what happens if someone on the other continent builds the AP and the other guys vote him? Does he win?! Even if our continent has the larger population, even if we don't even know who they are?!

I think every Civ has to have the AP religion in one of their cities for victory to be possible through the AP.

[kettyo]

Losing to AI feels so ashaming

[futurehermit]

Gifting Mass Media to the owner of the AP would have worked, too. . .

Good to know, I will definitely keep this in mind. Doing so would've cemented my victory

[LlamaCat]

deleted: sorry think I misread what you were saying

[Naismith]

Originally Posted by carl corey

That actually sounds like a broken mechanism... I wonder what happens if I vassalize everyone on my continent (all Jewish) and build the Apostolic Palace. Do the vassals have to vote for me?! If so, it's gonna be a very easy victory...

Also, what happens if someone on the other continent builds the AP and the other guys vote him? Does he win?! Even if our continent has the larger population, even if we don't even know who they are?!

And what if you're the only one with a certain religion?!

Needless to say, I'm very puzzled by this new wonder.

Yes, vassals have to vote for you. As mentioned in another post, at least one city in every Civ has to have the AP religion in order to call for the AP diplo victory vote.

I don't like the way the voting shares are figured. It would make more sense to give more votes for spreading the the religion, both to your own cities and the cities of other Civs. If you could also purge religions from a city, then you might see some very interesting "religious war" action. I use a missionary to convert an AI city, now I have 10 more votes. The AI chooses to purge the religion from the city, and it goes into resistance for 10 turns, etc.

[Huxley Hobbes]

Originally Posted by pi-r8

Wow the AP sounds absolutely horrible. It's like

Leader: "Bwa ha ha ha ha ha! No one can stop me now! I have only one rival left!"
Henchmen: "Excuse me sir, but the Zulus have just voted themselves as world leader."
Leader: "What! The have only 3 cities! I was about to nuke them into oblivion!"
Henchamn "Yes, but they are hindu, and our hindu citizens of Podunksville (pop 1) love them. I am afraid that they are now your supreme overlord."

This is exactly why I turn off all victory conditions except Space Race and Conquest. The others just plain don't make sense. Conquest obviously works because if everyone is dead, hey, who can complain? Space Race is a little more of a stretch, but I tend to just presume we wipe out the Earth and restart elsewhere.

[Astax]

AP is TERRIBLE! I lost a game cause i got some stupid religion in 1 city! 1 out of 24 cities! All the other civs only had 15 cities between all 3 of em! And I lost! It's total BS. It's not smart AI, It's BS! Because of that I play with diplo vic OFF. There is no reason they should win. I had so many cities I and I was 200 years ahead in tech.

[futurehermit]

Diplo is one of the victory options and is part of the game. You MUST take it into consideration. It is part of the game.

[robcheng]

Isn't there an option to "Defy" any AP resolution? Or is that option not available for AP Religious Leader?

[carl corey]

To futurehermit: They still have to do something about situations like that. That's a crappy way to win by AP. Spread a religion to all your cities, build the AP, spread the religion to one crappy city from each AI and watch them lose. ) Religious leader?! Not quite. It smells more like a buggy mechanism than like true diplomacy to me.