Map from Hell

[Strategos]

• Noble Difficutly
• I'm the celts (Boudica)
• The Zulu are my neighbors to the east
• Its just the two of us on the continent (til Astronomy)

And here's the thing: I can't win at all. I've restarted the map from scratch over fifteen times, and nothing seems to work. Ordinarily, this kind of map is worthy of a restart and some forgetting. But for some reason, this one is bugging the hell out of me. I think its the most unfair map I've ever played ...

Then again, I may need to start considering that I just suck ... lol.

So I'm posting this map for others to try if they want. Like I said, IMO, its a crappy map. I normally do well on noble, especially from a clean restart of the map. For those of you who play on noble, here's the challenge: beat this map. When you're done, join me in my misery, or poke some mad fun at my noob skills.

Some more background:

• Standard size - Noble - Epic Speed - Fractal ( I think ? )
• Two continents on the map + one tiny island ... That's all
• Celts and Zulu share the smaller of the two
• Caesar, Kublai, Victoria, Capac, and Montezuma share the other
• No contact til Optics
• Your continent has all strategic resources
• ... but very few luxury or food resources
• Shaka is a complete a$#hole, and attacks incessantly
• City locations are subpar, and there are very few rivers

That's all i can think of. Those of you who are adventurous and bored, I hope you enjoy this map!

Also, If you totally spank this map, I'd love to hear of your exploits. It should cheer me up some.

[MetaKing]

Well I tried and put everything into my armies, build no world wonders, no religion or so. After he declared war on me, it looked close for a moment but then I could take control.

In the addited file the zulus are almost beaten.(just one more city I think, and it must be a small one. I left it for you to put away the frustation )

Now the barbarians will be your biggest problem (earlier I avoided barbarian attack by putting units in fog of war) after they are beaten you should have a peacefull time until astronomy, by then you should have an technological advantice over them.

This is my first post and its not a badone, if I may say so.

[Strategos]

Dealing with the Zulu was maybe a major annoyance for me during most of my games. The real killing stroke was having the entire world declare war on me at the same time sometime after everyone has rifling and astronomy. When I say at the same time, I mean in the exact same turn. This must be new to BTS cause I can't ever remember this happening in Warlords or vanilla civ.

See if you can finish the game though. I'd like to see if your strategy pays off in the end and you can stave off the inevitable world war (against the celts ... lol).

[Moxxa]

Originally Posted by MetaKing

This is my first post and its not a badone, if I may say so.

Excellent post, and welcome to CFC! ...I've always wanted to say that...

EDIT: I'll try the map when I get home tonite. I've never played noble, but I'll see what I can do...

[IronCrown]

I thought I'd just play your savegame and wipe the Zulu out for fun. Well, I did it in 205 AD, but it was a lot harder than expected. I was too slow (probably because I never play epic, only normal speed) and Shaka had horse and copper nearby, so when I invaded him he already had a lot of axemen, impi and chariots. I took one city after the other but it was tough. He built masses of units. Well, but what else could he do.

[Shoot the Moon]

Originally Posted by Strategos

The real killing stroke was having the entire world declare war on me at the same time sometime after everyone has rifling and astronomy. When I say at the same time, I mean in the exact same turn. This must be new to BTS cause I can't ever remember this happening in Warlords or vanilla civ.

Maybe the improved AI will bribe others into war. That would be interesting. I am going to try the game tonight (although I usually play Monarch).

[LUEser]

Originally Posted by Shoot the Moon

Maybe the improved AI will bribe others into war. That would be interesting. I am going to try the game tonight (although I usually play Monarch).

I've seen AI bribe others into a war, sometimes you can notice the "You brought in a war ally on us" on the diplomacy screen

[Xiahou Mao]

If they all declared war on you at once, it was an Apostolic Palace resolution because you don't share their religion. They wanted to take out the infidels.

[mnf]

IronCrown: when did you invade?

I've got this far and I actually can't decide which way to go.



I was thinking maybe I could take out two of his cities, but he's got AH and IW already, and I have no idea how strong his forces are.

On the other hand, I've already got the Stonehenge and Great Wall, most probably can go for CoL and the Oracle, then concentrate on expanding into the southern jungles for cottages. Don't think I'll get Oracle to grab Civil Service, though, waiting that long will probably make me loose the Oracle. Grabbing CoL would be good enough for the courthouses, I think.

Then take him out when we have maces and catapults.

But I'm worried about my economy. I never do well if I don't start near grassland, I always end up having a bad economy and just trail behind everyone else.

[DrewBledsoe]

I had a quick bash after the Chargers game...I normally play quite higher and huge maps/marathon btw.

I expanded very quickly, and had 6 cities before Zulu has 3. In fact Zulu never got past 3 cities. I used a rather mean tactic, of whenever he sent a settler out with an impi/archer/axe whatever, I just killed it before he could settle. I also founded Hindhu first, didn't bother with GW (you really don't need it on so small a map), and deprived Shaka of all Iron and Horses, and cities actually

This way I can pick him off when I run out of land to settle, and the frequent flyer wars help generate Great Gens in the meantime. He is a moron though, attacking and losing constantly (although that might say more about the BTS ai). Haven't met the other continent yet.

This map IS quite hard, because all you can pick up for happiness is the Northern Furs, until much later, and the lack of rivers, combined with Boudecia's completely one dimensional traits, make commerce harder too. The early religion helped quite a lot though.

[pinjerro]

sorry to be out of thread, but if you think thats unfair i once tried in warlords where the persian capital where locked on a penisula by the arabians to the land and by me (Vikings) to the sea. i ended beating them both up.

[Strategos]

Originally Posted by Xiahou Mao

If they all declared war on you at once, it was an Apostolic Palace resolution because you don't share their religion. They wanted to take out the infidels.

Ah! Finally that makes some sense. This happens to me quite a bit, as I typically don't build the Apostolic Palace and I almost always found a religion that never spreads anywhere but my own cities (usually Confucianism via Oracle -> CoL).

I played the game through again trying something radically different. I turned my capital into a specialist city and founded several more specialist cities running three to four scientists. By the time I was done with the test I had 9 dumped nine super scientists into the capital along with the 2 free scientists from the Great Library and about three or four extra specialists supported by the farms. Add to that the library, observatory, and university, and that city was churning out techs with my gold slider all the way at 0% research.

I'm gonna try this tactic again, only this time I'm gonna try and get the pyramids built too for early Representation. That would put me FAR in the lead by the time I meet the other civs.

The placement of that capital city isn't good for much else. If a river ran through it, it'd be ideal for cottages. The first ten or so games I played, I made it a production city, but then decent sites for other commerce cities always seemed to be too far away. I'll post a screenshot of my specialist capital on the next game when I'm running Representation along with all those little specialists.

I've also been toying with the idea of a possible early cultural victory. Shaka isn't too hard to deal with, and the close marble is great for wonders. If you make the capital a production city and found two more production cities to the east toward the zulus, you would pretty much have your wonder towns, marble hooked up and all. Might want to include the Apostolic palace on that list of culture builds too, so you can avoid a combined Caesar/Kublai/Capac/Victoria/Montezuma religious alliance with Shaka jumping in just because he can. (Yes, this happens to me in every game where I play long enough to reach the industrial age). Might be best to either eliminate him or have him capitulate in a war.

Just some thoughts.

[Palomino]

The worst map I ever saw was one where I built my initial city and after about 6 turns discovered that I was permanently landlocked on a frozen island at the pole. Ice and my capital's position made it impossible to ever build a coastal city to make boats to sail away from this location. The island was nearly all ice beyond the fat cross of my capital despite being big enough for 3-4 cities.

Now that BTS and new, improved forts exist it would now be possible to get a naval vessel out onto the water. It was possible to build coastal cities, but they had no access to open water due to ice. If I recall it would now be possible to build a coastal city just outside the capital's fat cross and placing a fort alongside it would allow ocean access.

[IronCrown]

Originally Posted by mnf

IronCrown: when did you invade?

I'm not sure and I'm at work now... felt quite long to me before I invaded but that's probably because it is epic speed. I did found a third city before attacking Shaka, on the coast in the west between the corn and the pigs. Maybe that cost me too much time but on the other hand it added a lot of production and it was probably impossible to invade Shaka before he got axemen anyway, because he has the copper right in his capital's fat cross.

I never bothered to build wonders. Only granary, barracks and axemen/spearmen I didn't play seriously, just wanted to destroy Shaka. Otherwise I would have played differently, more like DrewBledsoe described it.

[mnf]

Ah, I see.

I have a problem with early expansion, though. I get to four cities and my science drops to 60% and I freak out. I just stop dead there and try to "rescue" my economy.

I guess that's why I still play Noble.

[Sam_Yeager]

Originally Posted by mnf

Ah, I see.

I have a problem with early expansion, though. I get to four cities and my science drops to 60% and I freak out. I just stop dead there and try to "rescue" my economy.

Science @ 60%, or lower, in the early game is quite common for many players. You could try going the SE route or more likely the cottage spam route.

[Carch]

Originally Posted by DrewBledsoe

I expanded very quickly, and had 6 cities before Zulu has 3. In fact Zulu never got past 3 cities. I used a rather mean tactic, of whenever he sent a settler out with an impi/archer/axe whatever, I just killed it before he could settle. I also founded Hindhu first, didn't bother with GW (you really don't need it on so small a map), and deprived Shaka of all Iron and Horses, and cities actually

OK, I'm no expert, but I'm not a novice either, and it's inconceivable to me that you could have 6 cities before an Expansive AI leader had 3. Nevermind having any semblance of an economy that early. How do you expand so quickly? And on this map, where do you put the cities?

My first go with this save game I did finally beat back Shaka but it was embarassingly late and I was woefully behind in technology by the time I was finally able to beat down his stacks of doom.

[colony]

I normally play a couple of levels higher, but I played this up to 10AD anyway. It's not a nice start, but it could be worse, at least you have metals.

Spoiler:

The only wonder I built was SH, because with this much land, and being Charismatic and starting with Mysticism, it just seemed too good to ignore. I did wait until I'd finished a Settler to start it though, as I wanted to hook up Copper early on so I could take out Shaka before he expanded all over the the place and built loads of units like he normally does. I did do a bit of whipping and some chopping to get things out faster, but nothing too extreme.

I attacked Shaka in 1500BC with 4 Axes, whilst I was building more (still only at 2 cities at this point) because, even though I wasn't ready, I wanted to raze his 2nd city before the borders expanded and he put more than 1 Archer there. I wasn't strong enough to take Ulundi so I pillaged his Copper and kept him from building anything except Archers until I had a strong enough force to finish him off. I took his last city in about 1000BC.

From there I built Libraries in all my cities and used Scientists to research towards IW/Calendar/Currency/CoL whilst I built a few more cities. Having the Pyramids would've made this faster, but without Stone it would've meant leaving Shaka alive much longer.

I did discover Gold near the capital around the time I captured Ulundi, which this early on will have made a difference, though none of my cities got big enough to need the extra happiness until after I'd discovered Calendar. I also expanded slightly too quickly, waiting until I was a bit closer to getting Currency might've been better, and didn't build enough workers. I was down to 10% science at one point, but that's ok as long as you can keep making scientists and are getting close to Currency/CoL.

Here's what had when I stopped. I'd probably cottage over Gergovia and Vienne once they grew a bit.



If I was to carry on with this game I'd stay with these 8 cities until my economy was a bit more stable and from there expand over the rest of the island.

[DrewBledsoe]

Originally Posted by Carch

OK, I'm no expert, but I'm not a novice either, and it's inconceivable to me that you could have 6 cities before an Expansive AI leader had 3. Nevermind having any semblance of an economy that early. How do you expand so quickly? And on this map, where do you put the cities?

My first go with this save game I did finally beat back Shaka but it was embarassingly late and I was woefully behind in technology by the time I was finally able to beat down his stacks of doom.

I know it sounds unlikely, but I can generally do this even on Emperor lvl, I kinda make a speciality of it My cities:-2nd to take the Iron Due East(I popped IW from a hut in the southern jungle-nice), 3rd to take Horses just outside of Shakas Cap(got there 2 turns before his settler did), 4th to take the 2nd Iron Se of Shakas cap, 5th to take the Furs due North of my cap, 6th to take the Fish and Horses NNe of my cap. ....my science was then about 30%ish, but no worries, some cottaging and scientist specialists, plus some settled priests in my Cap help keep it ticking over. And land is generally power in the long run. I basically chopped every single settler out of the cap.

As I said, two pairs of axes strategically positioned to kill any fledgling settlers, and one decent mixed stack in the horse city, most other cities just had one archer, and a few chariots between them to kill any barbs that appeared. He couldn't expand, so had to keep attacking me, but his biggest stack was 4 impis and 3 axes, which were always toasted before they could even pillage.

It wasn't that he wasn't trying to expand, it was just that I wouldn't let him I also got cash from razing some barb cities. The idea was just to box him in, then let him come on suicide attacks, while I pillaged his cottages, and slowly (after the initial rex) expanded and improved my land. Basically treating him as a barbarian with a name, who'd be conquered when I could afford it.(Isn't that what Shaka is anyway)?

[Strategos]

So I tried the map out again using my capital as a super science city/great person (scientist) farm. Currently, its 1708AD, I've had rifles since the 1600's, first to circumnavigate the globe, discover liberalism, economics, etc., and no one else even has astronomy yet. I've founded 5 of the seven religions also. The following screenshot is of my capital:



As you can see, not many tiles are being worked, but my science is already > 460 per turn with my research slider at 0% -- characteristic of this type of economy, but pretty good I think. At the lower-right, it shows that there are three free scientists and 11 great scientists settled there. The city has library, observatory, university, academy, and great library, as well as five monasteries, and some other wonders. Even its production is quite high (for not working any mines) due to the 11 gs's.

Currently in the game, Shaka is my vassal and no other civ has managed to research astronomy yet. I've had rifling for quite a while now which is why shaka is my lackey now. Now I don't have to worry about him and I get some happiness to boot. Here's a overview of most of my empire at this point:



The only resource that Shaka had and I didn't is sheep. As it turns out, only one exists on this continent, so since shaka got his a$% beat, I get his only sheep. Woohoo ...

To make the game easier this time around, I built the apostolic palace in my capital to deprive the other civs from getting it. Good thing, too, because as you can see, EVERY other civ is Jewish. If they had that palace, it would be holy war all the time against me (the infidel). I also tried to build as many useful wonders as possible either because I needed their effects, or I didn't want the ai to get them. Sadly, I was beaten by a single turn to spiral minaret ... but I did get Taj Mahal.

My current civics are: Representation (got this early from pyramids), Bureaucracy, Caste System (oracle slingshot to CoL), Free Market, and Pacifism. Pacifism + National Epic + Parthenon = +250% great person rate in the capital (+350% during golden ages). In retrospect, I should have built the parthenon much earlier. I must've gotten lucky because it was still there to build for quite awhile.

These are my three main cities:



I founded these two right after my capital with the intent that they would be production cities. The first was Vienne, where I alternated between workers and axeman (and a few spearmen) for quite some time. Next was Tolosa, whose sole initial purpose was to finish the pyramids for me. In addition to being unit factories they also double as wealth cities, since they can build all the buildings that yield +100% coin fairly quickly. Its not alot, but it makes a difference. When I'm really tight on cash, I just alternate the two prod. cities between building something necessary and wealth.

The rest of my cities are just miniature GP farms/minor science cities. Its getting late in the game, so I should consider some changeovers. Already, one of my best mini GP farms has been converted to a coastal production city (for the inevitable future wars), but I still keep a few scientist specialists around. At this point, I know I need to transition to something of a cottage economy, but I'm not quite sure how yet. Any advice would be great.

Looks like this may finally be the game I win on this forsaken map. And here's the save game for anyone who wants to peek a little further: