Airships: Why are they even in the game?

[Walkabout]

Make them available with combustion as a pure recon unit. That differentiates them from planes. Extend their life span a bit so they don't obsolete so quickly. That makes more sense than having them show up before their time. And get rid of the silly attack rating.

My two cents, anyway.

[_alphaBeta_]

Agreed. Given their sub spotting ability, and cheap recon alternative, why should they ever go obsolete?

[Swein Forkbeard]

Airships don't even come at a historically correct time on the tech tree. Has Firaxis confused them with hot-air balloons?! And I was happy that gunships that gunships were pushed back for historical accuracy (having helicopters come with a 1st-tier modern tech made absolutely zero sense).

[hoopsnerd]

Originally Posted by Swein Forkbeard

Airships don't even come at a historically correct time on the tech tree. Has Firaxis confused them with hot-air balloons?! And I was happy that gunships that gunships were pushed back for historical accuracy (having helicopters come with a 1st-tier modern tech made absolutely zero sense).

So what? Neither do Keshiks. Civ isn't a "history repetition simulator" its a video game which requires some imagination, and in an alternative history airships could have been used for bombing with minimal effictiveness - and thats what we have in the game (10% damage?). Airships also add another element to combat tactics, which is sorely needed in the civ series.

Quechas come in 4000 BC and the Inca civilization didn't even exist until around 1100 AD, so put that in your pipe and smoke it.

[UncleJJ]

Originally Posted by Swein Forkbeard

Airships don't even come at a historically correct time on the tech tree. Has Firaxis confused them with hot-air balloons?! And I was happy that gunships that gunships were pushed back for historical accuracy (having helicopters come with a 1st-tier modern tech made absolutely zero sense).

But this is also true for so many other units. Who ever heard of bronze axemen beating iron swordsmen? It just never happened. Grenadiers should never beat riflemen. Battleships should be built before Destroyers (Destroyers were invented to protect battleships from torpedo boats). And I could go on there are more historical mistakes and anomalies than correct unit relationships. So complaining about airships, as many in this thread are doing, just doesn't make sense to me.

I think you have to view the units and their abilities in Civ 4 as a bit of fun not an accurate historical simulation. Therefore airships are fine and they fit into the basic pattern as well as just about any other unit. As far as gameplay is concerned; they add another level of strategy and literally add another dimension to the game in that period and have interesting effects on tactics and research priorities. Airships have been a very worthwhile addition to BtS in my opinion.

[Peng Qi]

Originally Posted by UncleJJ

I think you have to view the units and their abilities in Civ 4 as a bit of fun not an accurate historical simulation.

Except airships aren't fun.

[hoopsnerd]

Originally Posted by Peng Qi

Except airships aren't fun.

Wow, what a spectcular arguement! You win! Airships are "stupid" and "not fun."

Please, indulge us with some reasons that they are "stupid" and "not fun."

I know you said that they are not historicaly accurate (but they are plausible)and i agree with you on that. But why aren't they fun? Because they happen to nerf a beeline you used to be able to take advantage of?

In my opinion, they are quite fun. Uncle JJ said it better than I will.

[Peng Qi]

Originally Posted by hoopsnerd

Please, indulge us with some reasons that they are "stupid" and "not fun."

Because I play games in order to have a back-and forth; every strategy game in history has an established pattern of move/counter-move. Airships have no counter-move.

I know you said that they are not historicaly accurate (but they are plausible)and i agree with you on that. But why aren't they fun? Because they happen to nerf a beeline you used to be able to take advantage of?

The only techs I generally beeline to are religion-founding ones. I don't like exploiting game mechanics in ways I find to be too dominant.

[Rusty Edge]

Originally Posted by _alphaBeta_

Agreed. Given their sub spotting ability, and cheap recon alternative, why should they ever go obsolete?

Sattelites?

[hoopsnerd]

Originally Posted by Peng Qi

Airships have no counter-move.

I think you need to use your imagination more, there are many ways to counter airships. What about airships of your own? Doesn't that effectively counter enemy airships by damaging the enemy stack as much as yours? If you dont have as many airships in range as the enemy, that's bad strategy on your part. Another counter for airships is not attacking until you get SAM infantry, beeline it if you must. Another counter for airships is using a GG on a Woody III axeman early-game barbslayer to give him the Medic III promotion. Put him in your stack, and your troops will be able to heal the airship damage. Another counter for airships is beelining to flight. I'm sure there are many ways to beeline to flight that nobody ever thought about before BtS... that's what makes airships good, its an added element to the game in that era. Airships are basicaly a rifleman/cavalry rush nerf, and it's not badly implemented because it allows the civ that went the "scientific" route (Scientific Method, Physics, etc.) to have a chance to survive the rush of the civ that went the "military" route (Military Tradition, Rifling, etc.). It slows the rifle or cav rush down because if you want a level playing field and don't have a tech lead then you've got to research physics too.

[Peng Qi]

Originally Posted by hoopsnerd

I think you need to use your imagination more, there are many ways to counter airships. What about airships of your own?

Let's say they changed swordsmen so that they got a +100% bonus against all non-swordsman units. By your logic, "build swordsmen of your own" is a "counter" to spamming these new swordsmen that can't be countered by any other unit. Hardly "using your imagination." Furthermore, in my example there, counter-spam is a more legitimate counter than what you're suggesting, since at least counter-spamming would allow you to fight and destroy the units opposing you. Building your own airships just allows you to hurt their units as much as they're hurting yours. You can't actually stop the airships.

Doesn't that effectively counter enemy airships by damaging the enemy stack as much as yours? If you dont have as many airships in range as the enemy, that's bad strategy on your part.

Oh, so I should spam forts on my borders?

Another counter for airships is not attacking until you get SAM infantry, beeline it if you must.

The "TECH FASTER" argument rears its ugly head again. Let's go back to the example above with the swordsmen. Let's say that four techs down the line, there's a unit they add called "anti-swordsman," which has 5 strength and gets +300% vs swordsmen. Now there's a counter for those crazy swordsmen built right into the game! So now those crazy swordsmen are fair, right? I mean sure, you need to already be dominating your opponents to get them, but they're there! Just don't fight anyone until you get them!

Another counter for airships is using a GG on a Woody III axeman early-game barbslayer to give him the Medic III promotion. Put him in your stack, and your troops will be able to heal the airship damage.

If I stop moving, thus allowing them to hit my units again. Nope, not a counter, just a mitigation of the damage.

Another counter for airships is beelining to flight.

TECH FASTER! ALWAYS DOMINATE EVERYONE IN TECH ALL THE TIME! ALWAYS PLAY AT A DIFFICULTY WAY WAY WAY LOWER THAN AN ACTUAL CHALLENGE!

that's what makes airships good, its an added element to the game in that era.

No, adding things "just to add an element" is a bad, awful plan that all good game designers avoid like the plague.

Airships are basicaly a rifleman/cavalry rush nerf, and it's not badly implemented because it allows the civ that went the "scientific" route (Scientific Method, Physics, etc.) to have a chance to survive the rush of the civ that went the "military" route (Military Tradition, Rifling, etc.). It slows the rifle or cav rush down because if you want a level playing field and don't have a tech lead then you've got to research physics too.

Hey, we should also add un-counterable units to other "scientific" techs, too, then, right? Alphabet surely needs some kind of über-unit so that players who go science shouldn't get punished, right?

[hoopsnerd]

^^ uber-unit? give me a break. airships can't even kill something. they are merely a support unit.

[hoopsnerd]

^^whats with the "everything must have a hard-well defined counter" anyways? Maybe you should invest your time playing Paper-Scissors-Rock. I thought every strategy game ever has a "counter" to everything? What's the counter to the other guy's Queen in chess -- the "uber-unit" if there ever was one? Your own queen? yes, that must be it. just like building your own airships are the counter to the enemies airships. Airships can be killed. If simply killing the airships is all you want to do, CAPTURE THE CITY THEY ARE BASED IN. What's next? Are you gonna start whining that your swordsmen cant swim out and take over ships that are blockading your ports because you neglected build any naval units? "I didn't research Sailing so there's no counter!"

[Stylesrj]

Actually, Bronze is stronger than Iron, so a Bronze Axeman beating an Iron Swordsman is actually quite accurate. Iron was just more common than bronze and didn't require an alloying process. Steel came much later.

Anyway, if you think Airships being available with Physics is bad, I played the Genetic Age Mod for Warlords.
Mark V tanks with Assembly Line, Zeppelins available with Physics and guess what else? Biplanes!
There was no Flight requirement, it was just Physics and you could build Biplanes and Zeppelins. Biplanes had an advantage against Zeppelins, but still it was a crappy mod idea.

So Airships with Physics does seem reasonable. Now, I don't think they're pulled by a steam train if they're bombing enemy territory. I mean, how's the train going to run? On a smooth road!? Give me a break!

The Airship uses magical pixie dust and Chuck Norris to propel it to and from the target. Everyone knows that silly.
Now, what's this talk about flying submarines!? Everyone knows a submarine goes underwater, hence the name Sub (as in under) and Marine (as in, water) so a flying Submarine contradicts itself unless you mean that the submarine is flying underwater (which technically isn't flying, but swimming, sinking, floating etc)
What you're looking for isn't a flying Submarine, it is an Airship, which is a ship that flies in the air, hence the name airship.
Of course, the airship would not be the same as the Airship, but it can fire sky torpedoes or something.
So the Flying Submarine contradicts itself in name. It should be the Flying Ship armed with Torpedoes and is shaped like a typical Submarine but isn't.

Oh yeah and airships rule!

[Peng Qi]

Originally Posted by hoopsnerd

^^ uber-unit? give me a break. airships can't even kill something. they are merely a support unit.

An incredibly powerful support unit that, when used correctly, makes your cities completely un-attackable until much later in the game.

Originally Posted by hoopsnerd

^^whats with the "everything must have a hard-well defined counter" anyways?

It's called "strategy."

Maybe you should invest your time playing Paper-Scissors-Rock.

Maybe you should invest your time playing a game that doesn't require any strategy.

I thought every strategy game ever has a "counter" to everything? What's the counter to the other guy's Queen in chess -- the "uber-unit" if there ever was one? Your own queen? yes, that must be it.

No, that's moronic. Chess doesn't have counters to pieces, it has strategies and counter-strategies involving piece movement and placement. Civ doesn't have that; it's just "stack of doom" versus "stack of doom." No positional tactics at all outside of "put yer guys in a forest if it happens to be on the way to where you're going and won't slow you down." Therefore, all of Civ's strategies involve units and their specific counters.

just like building your own airships are the counter to the enemies airships.

No, because your queen can capture your opponent's queen in chess. Airships can't even damage each other.

Airships can be killed. If simply killing the airships is all you want to do, CAPTURE THE CITY THEY ARE BASED IN.

Oh yeah, and if your opponent's Statue of Zeus is giving you trouble, just CAPTURE it! Opponent building units? CAPTURE their cities so they can't build as many! Duh, the trick here is HOW to capture against airships, not whether or not to capture.

What's next? Are you gonna start whining that your swordsmen cant swim out and take over ships that are blockading your ports because you neglected build any naval units? "I didn't research Sailing so there's no counter!"

Complete non-sequitur. Sailing counters sailing. FLIGHT counters Physics; i.e. you need a massive tech lead.

[DemonMaster]

Originally Posted by Stylesrj

Actually, Bronze is stronger than Iron, so a Bronze Axeman beating an Iron Swordsman is actually quite accurate. Iron was just more common than bronze and didn't require an alloying process. Steel came much later.

Just a parenthesis: Yes wrought iron is weaker than bronze, but the knowledge to make steel was available during the iron age, but it was difficult so only the most important tools was made in steel during that era. Iron tools are also much easier to resharpen.

Info taken from (I don't like to refer to) Wiki.

[Jeffrez]

After a fair few BtS games now my opinion is that the airship is a reasonably sensible unit with the exception of them being able to bomb destroyers and other industrial ships. Mind you, I generally dont make a stack of them to attack things with relying more on their recon ability : this has saved me from being crunched by absolutley massive oversea invasions (which catherine is particulary keen on), an event which surprised me a lot when it first happened, never saw it on warlords and vanilla.

Anyway, the airship is great, and there is a chance of them crashing, in my last game Hannibal must have had a crash every 8 turns or so, but then he did have a huge stash of them.

[Stylesrj]

But still, it is quite accurate to have a bronze axeman kill an iron swordsman, because iron is weaker than bronze and they're not using steel.

I like airships because I get to bomb the enemy's Longbowmen while I've got Infantry...

[_alphaBeta_]

Originally Posted by Rusty Edge

Sattelites?

Satellites only reveal the unexplored parts of the map. The fog of war still exists. Unless that changed in BTS?

[Krikkitone]

^ although by that point, the air interception levels are too high.

They would be a lot better as pure recon units, air units that can Move (and wouldn't have any missions to run) You use them for coastal surveilance, watching the seas. (Destroyers in the area should pick them off though)