So this guy I know from work...

[Aurelius321]

... plays Civ4. The short version of this story is as follows. He has been playing since Civ1 and a week ago I convinced him to upgrade from Civ3. He bought Civ4+Warlords.

He's giving me this story... Which I find a little hard to swallow even though he is an intelligent guy. He says he's playing on prince and can stay ahead of the AI in Technology.

OK, that alone doesn't sound too bad right?

Well he says in early game he feel that cottages aren't that important... Instead of commerce he concentrates on production (mines+farms). Also he says he can expand to eight to ten cities before building courthouses and FP while still not tanking his economy.

Now I'm a middle of the road player. I've played since CivNET (Civ 1.5) and have always been a casual gamer. However I can win 3/5 games on prince respectably.

Either this guy is way beyond me or he's BS. What do you guys think?

[Empiremaker]

Maybe exaggeration + SE?

[Norton II]

There are a few ways he might be doing this:
-using Organized leaders
-researching currency before CoL (the extra trade route helps)
-using scientists or merchants
-having some cities build wealth or research
-keeping cities small (IIRC civic upkeep costs are tied to population)

[mice]

8- 10 cities before courts and FP is the only part I find hard swallow. He must be using scientists. Pillage mopney and conquest money will fund research with ten cities, but he needs to start running merchants in them pretty quickly to stop 'strike'.

He's right that you dont need cottages to start off. Scientist will do.

have a look at this SG if you're interested. We don't use cottages or specialists on Prince and do just fine from sea tiles and conquest gold.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=220878

[Underdawg]

Originally Posted by mice

8- 10 cities before courts and FP is the only part I find hard swallow. He must be using scientists. Pillage mopney and conquest money will fund research with ten cities, but he needs to start running merchants in them pretty quickly to stop 'strike'.

He's right that you dont need cottages to start off. Scientist will do.

have a look at this SG if you're interested. We don't use cottages or specialists on Prince and do just fine from sea tiles and conquest gold.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=220878

Same sentiments here.

Scientists here and there will hold your empire's research. 45-50 beakers a turn is good enough and will allow you to keep at least close to par with tech leaders, specially with lightbulbed techs and trade those. Also, if you have enough gold stockpiled from huts and taking cities, then you can run at deficit research and get courthouses quick before going into strike.

I haven't mastered the balance yet between research and expansion in the early game yet so my empire tends to tank by early ADs and get behind by as much as 6-7 techs for a bit but comes back later.

I don't remember how the maintenance costs are in Prince but I think they are lower so maybe 8-10 is sustainable, last game I think I got to 6 or 7 cities before really digging in and catching up in research/economy; however, I was playing as an Organized Civ and I got to Code of Laws very early to take advantage of the early courthouses.

[RedRalph]

I've had 8 or so cities (5 of them conquered admittedly) before CoL. I'm a noble player, it hit my research pretty hard but I was already reasonably far ahead, and got CoL pretty quickly afterwards. I wouldnt rule it out

[cymru_man]

Number of cities is only relevant when you know what map size he is playing on :P

[toft]

Originally Posted by cymru_man

Number of cities is only relevant when you know what map size he is playing on :P

QFTW! It sounds very reasonable. It sounds like the way I'm playing, although I emphasize a lot more on cottages. And I guess "Prince" is hard on small maps, but on huge maps, then "prince" should be replaced by "Emperor".

[Aurelius321]

Thanks for all the replies.

He said that he plays on maps that are "Nothing smaller than the standard type" with pangaeas and claims he likes longer games. My guess is that he plays large map type with eight opponents. With farms I can see him using specialists to keep up with science.

cymru_man makes a good point about map size... As on larger maps it's easier to spread out.

I need to try using specialists more early game I think instead of letting my cities go into and -unhealth... Might as well make that extra food useful.



Thing is I asked him for a save game so I could 'learn his strategy' and he mumbled something about not having to prove himself to me

[Spearthrower]

It all sounds very reasonable to me, and I would make exactly the same claims, except I tend to play on Monarch.

On larger maps remember that the city distance cost is modified too.

I tend to have 8 to 10 cities before courthouses when playing on Marathon (or modified slower speeds) - yes my science slider is sinking, but the % matters not compared to the beakers. If you can claim a decent swathe of land early, you are set for the rest of the game, it's a balancing act but one that I enjoy.

Basically, it sounds like he plays differently than you, why not just have a game with him and see how it goes - or set up a parallel single player game to see how you both work out in your chosen strategies.

[Aurelius321]

I asked him about a multiplayer game because I wanted to learn how he does things and he said he wanted to get used to the game more first, as he has only played 4 games of Civ4 so far.

[sabo]

He's probably doing it the same way I'm doing it in my current game, I am just now starting to build courthouses, I have 8 cities, and I'm running my research at 10%... BUT I have 3 cities, (including my capitol) running research only. Without the 3 cities my techs come at about one in 40-60 turns, but with the cities running research I see new techs every 8-20 turns.
And I'm the tech leader!!

If your in no danger of being attacked, it's the only way to go!! ")

[Dairuka]

I've had plenty of conques/domination won games where I was silly enough to keep at least a dozen conquered cities from my enemies pre-renaissance. (All good locations with connected resources.)

This was prior to me researching Currency - but I did however have the Code of Laws, and plenty of Cottage Spam + One Farm/Specialist City making Scientists.

I was ahead by at least 6 techs against the Monarch AI that game. I won it around 1300 AD by Conquest. (I vassalized most, and killed the rest.)

It's very possible to over-expand, and still be able to keep your economy afloat. However it will require at least one specialist city running either Merchants/High Science Slider, or Scientists/Low Science Slider.

[hoopsnerd]

I'm positive that it's possible. I usually play Emporer but have recently played "down" to a few Prince games because I'm teaching my girlfriend to play. I can't believe how much the extra happiness and health and lower maintenance helps you on the lower level. If he's philosophical it's very easy to use GPs/Religion to fund your army. Religion is very easy to found too, cause the AI techs slow. I never build couthouses "early" even though I almost always try to slingshot CoL with the Oracle (if i have enough wood to chop)... I don't build courthouses until my cities are big enough that a courthouse is actually needed -- and they aren't until your cities make it beyond the early-game happiness caps (although i didnt check on Prince...). That's probably a bad habit left over from previous civs (i NEVER built courthouses in civ1 until all other buildings were built), and especially with BtS and espionage, but since I rarely use that building I know that it's possible. I also only play Huge maps, so thats where my frame of reference is coming from.

[JavalTigar]

The thing that pops out to me about this is: Such a smooth transition to Civ 4.

After 4 games I was still dealing with the tweaks of cottages, great people, civics, no more ICS, specialized cities, etc...

I had my ass handed to me on my first game. I had to "unlearn what I had learned" from Civ3. Almost all the old ways don't translate across.

Even now, many games played, I learn something new all the time.

My gut tells me he is just trying to 'One Up' you. He most likely plays on settler. I could be wrong though.

[m4gill4]

yeah I agree with javal. My first thought was that he's just a douche and trying to sound like a bad ass. It took me a week at least to start competing on noble level. It took me even longer to really grasp the economics and maintenance costs.

[T.A JONES]

My question is why are taking him away from his Civ3? THis was a bad thing to do.

If in a few weeks he says he's decided to return to civ3 modded, don't write back askin if hes bs'ing you again. You can count on him this time tellin the truth

[Silence101]

As a prince player myself, it seems unlikely to me that someone would understand the mechanics of an SE after just picking up the game - that's not a beginner's strategy.

Without running an SE, I would find it extremely difficult to sustain an empire of 10 cities without CoL, Currency, or cottages - though granted I usually play the standard map size. Still I think your friend is pulling your chain - not that it's impossible to do with an indepth understanding of core concepts, but for a beginner... I don't buy it.

I would be interested in what strategy he is using - Can you get more of a description of exactly how he is playing?

[Defiance]

Totally possible, especially on Prince.

I'd ask what his science slider is at and if he's using specialists, you also said he was a Civ player before so he isn't completely new to the game, a little reading up on some forums and you could do that pretty easily.

Larger maps help, which he's prob using huge, he could also be using wonders to support his economy which nubs love to do, it's effective sometimes as long as you don't over do it and/or use a Industrial civ, also a Financial/Coastal strategy could work, especially with the great lighthouse or colossus or both. ( I did this in my last BTS Earth map as hannibal, because of the start you have very little usable terrain so I put up the Lighthouse/Colossus + Financial I was out-teching the AI on Monarch without even having any cottages lol)

I'd also ask if your both guys, it doesn't really matter because guys brag to guys and lie to girls so heh

If your having problems on Prince I'd suggest stop automating workers/cities.

[Aurelius321]

Some good points were made... Let me tell you what I know.

Defiance : We are both guys and he has not mentioned any forums that he's read or been a part of... Despite me mentioned this forum in a conversation.
Silence : I tried to get some strategy out of him, he only mentioned that he, and I quote "Continue to pump out as many cities as I can, because more land equals more resources equals more science". When I mentioned Increased City Maintenance he muttered something about "Yes it is a little different and I'm working on getting better at managing."
Javal: I tend to think that this your answer is close too... I'll say why.

We had a talk on and off for a few hours at work about this and never once did he mention Great People, Specialists, or Building Research. In fact the only specific strategy he did mention was he wanted to build farms over cottages because he wanted the extra food to be able to work production squares.