The Totally Neglected Spy Missions (by the AI)

[hoopsnerd]

Would anyone care to share some experiences of AI-related espionage that don't include poisoned water? Since BtS came out, I've played at least 12 games, most to the point where the game was decided in the industrial ages... I'm using Solver's patch -- since my second game (I'm a marathon player - emperor and above- huge map) and I have failed to observe ANY AI espionage action other than occasionally sabatoging a mine or a plantation someplace and of course, poisoning my freaking water supply. I have NEVER, EVER seen foment unhappiness, though i've heard other players mention it. Other than that, I've never heard of players mentioning any other AI use of espionage against them -- nor have I experienced it myself. What's up with this? From my point of view, the new "espionage" feature in BtS should really be called the "water poisoning" feature because that's all it's ever been used against me for. I would estimate that I've had my water supply poisoned 100+ times, had improvements destroyed 10+ times, and seen no other espionage action taken ever, at least that I am aware of.

Perhaps I get the poisoned water overused against me because I routinely play "Tokugawa style" and refuse to trade any of my monopoly technologies with anyone and also refuse to help anyone and everyone every time. Anyone have a different experience? Anyone ever had techs or gold stolen? If techs/gold is stolen, does the log tell you or will it go unnoticed unless you check the AIs EPs/Gold/Techs constantly?

[anonymous4402]

They destroyed two of my Granaries and they seem to LOVE destroying my Wiineries. No Foment Unhappiness though, and yes, Poison Water comes up the most.

[zenspiderz]

yeah they just love p*****g in the water.. and sabotaging tiles but always the most retarded choices... I am building nukes and have only one uraniam tile and they repeatedly pillage my redundant not worked and not even traded deer improvement
Never would happen in MP even against noobs.. AI improved yes... still sub moronically stupid certainly.

[50_dollar_bag]

very true.
Imagine though the AI influencing your religion or civics . I'm not saying that they shouldn't but I think that option should be more expensive.

[Defiance]

Solvers Patch helps with AI using Espionage correctly, the first time I played with it I got some crazy -6 unhappiness and didn't even know what it was from.. I started to freak out lol

[Dan Quale]

The mayas are my new favorite civ simply beacause of expansive now, in my current game The poison water has little to no effect(marathon/emporer). Its mostly because all of my 25ish core cities are over 15 pop, so the food store is just to massive to reduce, but expansive seems to be that little bit extra to counter the poison. Counterespionage/ratio/security beauros seem to do nothing, so excessive health is teh way to go.

Some games I've had to finish with environmentalism just to bypass the poison gayness, but this one I'm unstoppable.

[Swiss Pauli]

I have had production sabotaged and unhapiness fomented, as well as the ubiquitous water poisoning.

[jray]

Originally Posted by Defiance

Solvers Patch helps with AI using Espionage correctly, the first time I played with it I got some crazy -6 unhappiness and didn't even know what it was from.. I started to freak out lol

Check out the Aug 29 version of Solver's Unofficial BtS Patch:

• AI prefers to poison water supply of cities with a low food bar to ensure population loss.
• AI now knows how to use Steal Tech and Incite Revolt
• AI's may choose to not be espionage "petty terrorist" and instead only use large espionage missions (like steal tech and sabotage project).
• AI uses spies more smartly (camps them in cities to get the discount)

[Spearthrower]

I find that they like to destroy buildings that are obsolete and I can no longer build.

This upsets me.... but some people might have noticed that I am just a wee, teensy-weensy, teeny bit upset with the whole bloody notion of Espionage.

Highly flawed inclusion in the game in my opinion, it overwrites too many important aspects of the game and in my opinion, the only way to "solve" it is to make it optional so I can turn the damn thing off without feeling guilty about it!!

[Omegon3]

If all you get is poisoned water, consider yourself lucky... I'm surprised at this given the level at which you are playing as compared to my own (chicken) "chieftain" ranking.

Other nations' "spying" is the big reason I push every freakin' building that increases my "spy" level (I don't necessarily initiate covert operations other than "counter-espionage", but I will answer back if another nation starts sabatoging me!!). The only time I don't is when I'm playing a map in which I'm alone on a continent/island; then I only rush them when I establish a city on a continent with another civ.

While most of the time the spies are caught before they manage to do anything, I will get lost production, lost buildings, and -- of course -- poisoned war (especially in new cities on other continents where I haven't managed -- yet -- to build courthouses, jails, security bureaus, and/or intelligence agencies). They never have accomplished the other things and I'm guessing that's because of the big cost.

I do have a question for anyone that knows -- does it help to have a spy in your city to thwart other spies? I don't think so, but...

[Spearthrower]

Originally Posted by Omegon3

I do have a question for anyone that knows -- does it help to have a spy in your city to thwart other spies? I don't think so, but...

Yes!

A spy finishing their turn on a tile with your spy sitting on it has a fair chance of being caught....

That said... *enters personal broken record mode* ( ) I have games where I have at least double the EP's of all other AI's, all counter spy buildings in every city, a spy sat in every city.... spies liberally wandering around my nation, spies on borders... spies on resources.....

AND STILL!!!! The AI managed to blow up one of my buildings every turn.... yeah sure, I catch 8 spies per turn.... but that last one gets through at least every other turn on average.

So frustrating and so cheesy.... I still don't know who stamped this poorly written mod to be included as part of the main game!!

[hoopsnerd]

Originally Posted by Spearthrower

Yes!

A spy finishing their turn on a tile with your spy sitting on it has a fair chance of being caught....

That said... *enters personal broken record mode* ( ) I have games where I have at least double the EP's of all other AI's, all counter spy buildings in every city, a spy sat in every city.... spies liberally wandering around my nation, spies on borders... spies on resources.....

AND STILL!!!! The AI managed to blow up one of my buildings every turn.... yeah sure, I catch 8 spies per turn.... but that last one gets through at least every other turn on average.

So frustrating and so cheesy.... I still don't know who stamped this poorly written mod to be included as part of the main game!!

To throw some fuel on the fire, Spearthrower, have you seen how overpowered Great Spies are now? I've stolen like 15 early game techs from Huyauna and Joao, forget researching things yourself in the early game, just rush to alphabet and rush the great wall and you can steal techs like mad. What's the point in researching things like Meditation when you can steal it for less than 200 EPs? I just used my 2nd Great Spy on Joao and I stole Civil Service and Machinery from him -- thanks buddy! BTW is Joao the new Tech Club? After dropping the great spy I noticed hes building RESEARCH in one of his (size 10) cities BEFORE 1 AD!!! Huyana is on my continent too and Joao is ripping him up in techs. I'm playing Diety/Marathon/Hemispheres/Huge/13AI.

[Quagga]

I've had my one-and-only iron knocked out many times. Very frustrating when I "can no longer build pikeman" in several cities.

I've had all progress on theatre killed many times in newly captured cities. I've also had progress lost on unit builds.

Also, I've lost forges and factories. But the favorite is posion water and hit harbor or granary at the same time.

I can't tell if revolts are happening because of spy activity. I seem to get more border problems than in Vanilla/Warlords, so I think this is happening.

[bonafide11]

I've had a few decent experiences with the AI, sometimes destroying my only horse or something. But usually they just destroy one of my many banana plantations or something.

[Spearthrower]

Originally Posted by hoopsnerd

To throw some fuel on the fire, Spearthrower, have you seen how overpowered Great Spies are now? I've stolen like 15 early game techs from Huyauna and Joao, forget researching things yourself in the early game, just rush to alphabet and rush the great wall and you can steal techs like mad. What's the point in researching things like Meditation when you can steal it for less than 200 EPs? I just used my 2nd Great Spy on Joao and I stole Civil Service and Machinery from him -- thanks buddy! BTW is Joao the new Tech Club? After dropping the great spy I noticed hes building RESEARCH in one of his (size 10) cities BEFORE 1 AD!!! Huyana is on my continent too and Joao is ripping him up in techs. I'm playing Diety/Marathon/Hemispheres/Huge/13AI.

That's part of the reason why I modified the Great Wall to require 10 walls!! Now the Great Wall tends to be built at the end of the classical period (not far off history really!) and stops me from a) Avoiding all barbs and b) Relying on Espionage for techs.... I know you can still get G Spies without the GW, but at least then you work for them.... in the first 12-14 games I played of BTS, I got the GW everytime (Noble 1st game, Prince for a couple, Monarch the rest).

If there aren't some serious shake-ups in the next patch, I will either go for a full on mod to suit my interests.... or go back to Civ vanilla and play some of the excellent mods, because BtS is all wonky at the moment! Some great ideas badly implemented... and some terrible ideas also badly implemented.

[Larklight]

Incidently, In my OCC, they love taking out my powered factory. Every turn I'd catch two spies- if I didn't, I would catch one and lose the factory. I counter-espionaged every whatever turns.

[pandaberry]

I just had a spy sabatoge production of my Red Cross National Wonder when it was 2 turns away from being completed! To add insult to injury, the next turn my major military city had a spy forment unhealthiness in it.

I thought this was a very well done espionage assault on my civ because I was getting ready for a major attack on Mansa Musa as soon as the peace treaty expired. However, I had to wait additional turns to wait for the Red Cross to get done so I could bring some decent medical units with my troops.

[Grimz101]

imagine the AI influencing civics or religion.. if you were not a spiritual civ you would be screwed .
worst thing i have noticed is when i take a city from the AI on maps with continents, they will posion their ex cities, and well even though they spend half the time revolting, having all that population lost is evil

[Larklight]

One idea I had in my first BtS game was to effecitvily give the spies one city. It wasn't an important one, but I spotted that they constantly targetted this one city. Everywhere else (of note) had espionage defense, so maybe they simply went for the city without it?

So I just built hospital, aquaduct, public transport etc., in it, and let them poison it non-stop. Stopped them targetting my prize cities.