Spritual? Whats the fuss all about?

[Pintto73]

So - I've noticed that a ton of people seem to love the spritual trait. All it gives is no anarchy. Can someone explain to me what the big deal is with Spritual? Some claim its a micromanagers dream come true.. I just dont see it. Usually I only change governments 3-4 times a game.

[Defiance]

You answered your own question, you usually only change governments 3-4 times a game.

Imagine being able to switch governments every few turns without cost, every turn you change is a turn you lose Cash/Prod/Research it adds up to a lot by the end of the game.

Its a micromanaging thing, meaning, it's for advanded tactics

Say you want to goto war, you immediately switch to say.. PoliceState,Vassalage,Theocracy pump out a bunch of elite units really fast then switch back to economic civics. Say you get attacked and your about to lose a city, you can immediately change civics no delay and whip/draft defenders in your soon to be attacked city. You could immediately switch to OR if you want to spit out some missionaries or build a wonder then switch back no cost. Say you want to go on a quick buying spree then back to represenation for the research bonus, you can immediately goto US buy a huge army and then go back to represenation, or whatever your running.

It's a warmongers trait, or if you just want to be super efficient.

It lets you switch between peace and war civis immediately or research and production or cash or whatever, it allows you to specialize your empire to a certain area for a few turns then switch back then do it again a few turns later, all without cost.

[Lurking Liu]

Funny thing, not only is it a warmonger's trait, but also a diplomat's trait! If some Civ asks you to change to their favorite Civic, with just about any other leader (pre-Cristo Redentor) they're asking you to fight them. However, with Spiritual that question basically becomes "Do you want +1 Relations with us? Y/N?"

More importantly, try playing Marathon sometime and change governments... Three turns for swapping one civic? Sad-sad...

Lastly, faster production on temples is great by itself, but it never specifies that those temples have to be of your State religion. Theoretically, you're getting double production on up to 7 buildings.

[ezwip]

I'm a die hard for the spiritual trait as well. It will also help you research the Cristendo Reactor before anyone else. You can switch civics every 3 or 4 turns, there is still a pause in switching again, but it makes a big difference. If I decide to pump out an army why settle for one that is second rate... as Defiance has pointed out it has many benefits beyond just switching to representation without a one turn penalty. It's all about micromanagement.

[colony]

Originally Posted by Pintto73

Usually I only change governments 3-4 times a game.

Because you're only changing civics a few times every game you often won't be using the ideal civics for that particular moment. It takes more effort to use than Financial or even Philosophical, but it means you can run the ideal civic whenever you want, without having to wait until you can change 2 in one go. It also has a bigger effect in the mid game, as early on all it does is save you a turn from switching to slavery.

Being able to switch between Nationhood/Theocracy and Bureaucracy/Org Rel when you need units is probably the easiest way of using it. Drafting is incredibly powerful if you can cope with the unhappinness. You can also switch to Caste System/Pacifism for a few turns, and hire a load of specialists (letting the city starve too if you have to) to try and generate one or 2 GPs very quickly, before switching back to Slavery/Org Rel for example. It also makes the AI demands to switch civics or religion a bit less annoying, and more practical to do. Spiritual's all about felxibility and being able to take advantage of the particular circumstances at a point in time.

It's advantages are more subtle than Financial is, but being able to use optimum civics all game can add up to a big long term advantage.

[Pintto73]

wow - interesting ideas... I'm ashamed that I didnt think of that myself. Anyway, I think I am hooked to the financial powerhouse that is Darius. After playing Fin/Org, I am not sure if i will ever be able to change.

[CivFan87]

I love spiritual civs. I play them almost exclusively

[Spearthrower]

Marathon games make spiritual more powerful.

Adapting continuously to in game situations every 5 turns is not, for me, a lot of micro-management, but it offers the flexibility to always be one step ahead of the AI. I can do all my troop building for 5 rounds under theocracy/vassalage/police state..... then switch right back again to focus on my economy and infrastructure buildup.

I can play without Spiritual, but when I play with it I feel like I am in control of every situation.

Really you want to ask yourself what the value of Financial/Organised is.... when I played Darius, I had more cash than I needed. Really, unless you a maintaining a vast army and empire, you don't need so much financial support.... and if you are doing that you are probably close to domination anyway, so your treasury hardly matters.


EDIT: Forgot to mention the diplomatic effects too: When someone comes knocking to demand you accept their religion/civic.... under Spiritual, you can just say YES and reap the diplo rewards and switch back 5 turns later. The AI's love a spiritual neighbour!

[Polycrates]

Spiritual is far and away my favourite trait. It allows so much versatility and so much efficiency within an empire that it's unbelievable - IF you use it. I agree it's pointless if you just play a normal game and save yourself a few turns of anarchy.

One thing that took me a little while to get is that, as the name implies, it really does go hand-in-hand with strong religious focus. The first aspect is the religious civics, which is the column Spiritual can abuse the most anyway.
You can always easliy switch back into slavery/OR and whip out a horde of missionaries to easily spread any religion of choice throughout your civ - letting you get the most from the civics. Theocracy can let you generate a well-trained army right across your civ. Bursts of CS/Pacifism are INCREDIBLE for generating GPPs across an empire with little pain, and are one of the major reasons why Spiritual rocks.

Once you get Free Religion, most people will sit there with it constantly on. With Spiritual, you can go for jaunts back into the other religious civics and get the benefits of other later civics in other columns. Universal Sufferage/OR gives a nice discount on rushing buildings; Theocracy is still great for late-game wars; Representation/Caste System/Mercantilism/Pacifism will generate huge GPPs in short order while still giving nice research. I often like to go for short bursts in the religious civics and set research to zero, then go back to FR and get the 10% research bonus on 100% of my commerce.

Mid-to-late-game happiness is also a massive bonus of Spiritual. With easy OR switching, you can build heaps of missionaries for every religion in your empire and spread them to all your cities for a great happiness boost when you go to FR, and building cheap temples for each religion can be a very worthwhile use of hammers for happiness post-HR.

In the other columns, switching briefly to Universal Sufferage and/or slavery + OR can be very good for quick rushing of buildings; quick bursts of Nationhood to draft up a nice army in a hurry (and you've got extra happiness to compensate too); Vassalage for units when you're not running Theocracy; Serfdom when you get a new worker tech (Civil Service, Replaceable Parts, Railroad etc) and need improvements in a hurry; Free Market for commerce and corps, and State Property for war and production. Environmentalism when you've been hit by poison or you want to heavily industrialise.
It isn't at all rare for me to switch into every civic multiple times in a single game.

There's also the diplomatic aspect. You can always switch religion (or switch in and out of no religion) for diplomatic purposes, and again it's easier to quickly duck into OR to quickly spread a new religion if you find you've backed the wrong horse. Quick bursts in a different religion can be great for new trade opportunities, or just for lots of lovely backstabbing.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that Spiritual opens up opportunities for a whole different type of hybridised economy, not just with civwide bursts of CS/Pacifism in a primarily cottage economy, but also a Liberalism/Nationalism/Constitution beeline and a major jaunt into Rep/CS/(Mercantilism)/Pacifism and scientist bulb a lightning-fast path up to biology/medicine, a switch to slavery once the food bonus kicks in and whip buildings, found sushi, then go democracy and build up those cottages with emancipation.

Some people say it's worthless now that Golden Ages have changed, but for that to seriously contend with Spiritual you'd have to be criminally underutilising Spiritual in the first place. Plus you can just spend those GPs on stuff other than Golden Ages anway! Christo Redentor is too late to really contend. Plus the Shwedagon Paya is a fantastic wonder for a Spiritual civ, and can easily make up for the Golden Age thing. Also, with the extra spy buildings, switching US/slavery/OR for the buildings and back to Rep can give very nice benefits for very powerful late-game specialists.

I love Spiritual so much!

[Pintto73]

hmmmm, I think you might have made a beliver out of me.. I think this weekend i will try Mansa Musa. I cant seem to throw out financial, and I would like to try Spritual out... Also, the mint seems to be an awesome building. The UU seems terrible though.. Spi/Fin seems to be an interesting combo.

[Shoot the Moon]

One more thing, Spiritual is also helpful for a cultural victory as cheaper temples in essence means cheaper cathedrals.

[Monkeyfinger]

I personally see spiritual as a middle of the road trait. Not bad like you thought, not great like people in this topic are saying.

There are too many clear bests, as it were, to make the micromanagement thing quite the instant win button some people would have you believe it is. The cheap temples is a nearly nonexistent bonus because temples are so easy to build without it that cutting their cost in half barely does anything.

Still, for certain classes of civics, the ability to freely juggle is good.

Let's compare, for instance, Legal civics vs. Religious civics.

If you are relying on specialists and not aiming for cultural victory the undisputed best route is to make your capital crank out tons of hammers and run bureaucracy for the whole game. Using cottages? Run bureaucracy while they are cottages/hamlets/villages, then go to free speech when enough of them become towns. Want a cultural win? Go FS immediately and never leave it. So even if you are spiritual, if you switch legal civics more than twice during the game, or ever run nationhood or vassalage, you should turn off your computer, castrate yourself, dump plenty of salt in the wound, then slide yourself feet first through a woodchipper. This does not make spiritual look good.

On the other hand, Organized Religion, Theocracy and Pacifism are 3 very different civics that all provide situational benefits. Building infrastructure? Have a desire to spread your religion? You want OR's bonus. Need a military? Get a free promotion on all your new troops with theocracy. Need a quick great person for a lightbulb or a corporation? Pacifism for a few turns. It's great to be able to juggle these civics around based on what your empire needs. This casts spiritual in a far better light.

tl;dr if the civics were better balanced spiritual might well be the best trait in the game. As is it's merely okay.

[snipafist]

Originally Posted by Shoot the Moon

One more thing, Spiritual is also helpful for a cultural victory as cheaper temples in essence means cheaper cathedrals.

Spiritual and Industrious is probably one of the best combinations for a cultural victory, but there are obviously other good ones too. Philosophical combines nicely with spiritual this way too.

[ezwip]

What's that guy trying to say with his reference to Golden Age several times backed by no comment regarding it? What does spiritual have to do with Golden Ages?

[JujuLautre]

Originally Posted by Monkeyfinger

So even if you are spiritual, if you switch legal civics more than twice during the game, or ever run nationhood or vassalage, you should turn off your computer, castrate yourself, dump plenty of salt in the wound, then slide yourself feet first through a woodchipper. This does not make spiritual look good.

Are you implying that vassalage and nationhood are not good?

I think you will have to convince lots of people here, me being the first

[JujuLautre]

Originally Posted by ezwip

What's that guy trying to say with his reference to Golden Age several times backed by no comment regarding it? What does spiritual have to do with Golden Ages?

Golden ages have been changed in BTS. They require less GP (the first requires 1 Gp instead of 2), they boost GPP generation by 100%, and topic related, you don't suffer anarchy during golden age. Thus giving you part of the benefit of spiritual.

[Monkeyfinger]

Originally Posted by ezwip

What's that guy trying to say with his reference to Golden Age several times backed by no comment regarding it? What does spiritual have to do with Golden Ages?

In Beyond the Sword (but not Vanilla or Warlords) switching civics has no anarchy if you are in a golden age, regardless of what your traits are. This ability everyone has to burn a GP or two for spiritual's biggest benefit as well as a bunch of other good ones hurts the trait's relative value.

Originally Posted by JujuLautre

Are you implying that vassalage and nationhood are not good?

I think you will have to convince lots of people here, me being the first

Well yeah. To get a free promotion on your units, you need Vassalage OR Theocracy, not both. So you should not run them at the same time. Which to pick? Well to use vassalage, you have to give up the awesome bonus of bureaucracy, or perhaps free speech. To run Theocracy you do not. So screw vassalage.

Nationhood provides extra happiness at an unlock point in the game where you have lots of happiness boosting resources and buildings, and are close to having representation. It also gives you an inferior version of whipping. *flush*. And again, you have to seriously gimp either your capital or your towns to use it.

[InvisibleStalke]

Originally Posted by JujuLautre

Are you implying that vassalage and nationhood are not good?

I think you will have to convince lots of people here, me being the first

Me second. Often with a large empire, Nationhoods low civic cost saves you more than bureaucracy will earn you considering its high civic cost. Plus it gives you happiness. I'm often surprised at how good it is as just an economic civic - even without considering the power of drafting.

And vassalage is great for managing costs if you have a huge army. But its also high maintenance and I tend to abandon it after medieval. If I am warmongering though I will definitely take vassalage over Bureaucracy.

Bureaucracy shines if you have a small number of cities and when your capital is the only powerhouse you have, but isn't that great anymore once you get a lot of cities.

And Free Speech is incredible for a late game cottage economy - dwarfing bureaucracy's research potential unless your empire is very small.

Spiritual will probably switch between vassalage (while whipping troops), nationhood (for low costs and drafting) and bureaucracy (to hurry wonders in the capital). That seems a pretty good rotation to me. Add in Free Speech if you have lots of cottages or if you are going for a culture win.

[InvisibleStalke]

Originally Posted by Monkeyfinger

In Beyond the Sword (but not Vanilla or Warlords) switching civics has no anarchy if you are in a golden age, regardless of what your traits are. This ability everyone has to burn a GP or two for spiritual's biggest benefit as well as a bunch of other good ones hurts the trait's relative value.

Except that you can only do this 2-3x a game. So the golden age saves you the cost of the 6-7 time you might normally change civics. But it doesn't help you fine tune your civics constantly. Nor can you necessarily muster up a golden age on demand when you are suddenly attacked.

Well yeah. To get a free promotion on your units, you need Vassalage OR Theocracy, not both. So you should not run them at the same time. Which to pick? Well to use vassalage, you have to give up the awesome bonus of bureaucracy, or perhaps free speech. To run Theocracy you do not. So screw vassalage.

The beauty of spiritual is that you only need to spend 5 turns in a civic. So why not go vassalage the turn before every city in your empire whips/builds a military unit? The "awesome" bonus of bureaucracy (which isn't always awesome due to its high cost) can wait 5 turns surely. And vassalage + theocracy gets you closer to the next promotion. Eg your HE city with stables+barracks + MI is now producing level 4 units.

Nationhood provides extra happiness at an unlock point in the game where you have lots of happiness boosting resources and buildings, and are close to having representation. It also gives you an inferior version of whipping. *flush*. And again, you have to seriously gimp either your capital or your towns to use it.

No way is drafting inferior to whipping. It costs only one population point. With Globe Theatre you can draft every turn that pop grows back - usually every single turn if you plan it well. Drafting a rifleman costs way fewer population than whipping that rifleman. By the time you get nationhood, whipping is severely overrated - the buildings just cost too much (except of course you can flip into OR to reduce their cost).

[Diamondeye]

Me third. Spiritual for the win, maybe the best trait in the game. Possibly the best trait in the game. Definately the best trait in the game infact. Look at above posters.