40k NES Preview/Sign-up/OOC Thread

[das]

Why, isn't that precisely what I have implied in the last sentence? I suppose I'm in agreement, then.

[HunterG24]

I feel that getting into the "wet navy" would complicate things. (shrug) it's just me but I feel the game would do better without having to get into submarines and ships and the like.

[das]

Well, yes, they are more than a bit redundant.

[labrat13]

You could always consider an armored regiment to be a stand in

[germanicus12]

This is the second update I missed. I will try to catch the next update but if I miss that one I will drop out.

[foolish icarus]

Perhaps a navy should be considered part of a planet's 'fortifications'?

[labrat13]

It seems more like a PDF Armored division, or similar. You can, for example transport a navy to a hostile planet to try and take it.

[Symphony D.]

Originally Posted by TerrisH

the Exception to that would be Submarines. with a large about of water to hide beneath, they would be hard to find from space.

Decloak: das remains correct. Real-time magnetic anomaly detection, surface-penetrating radar... The more advanced something gets, the more ways there are to find it as a consequence of those same advances. Find something, drop a bar of metal of metal on it. Or a rock. Problem solved.

It's true that a submarine could, with sufficient technology, hide reasonably well from space-based forces, but that submarine is, of course, limited to that planet, and has no real realistic way of retaliating against those space forces, nor can it realistically strike against ground forces as long as those space forces are present (being able to detect any sort of missile launch--cruise or ballistic--and both trace and counter it; the only exception to this would be supercavitating weapons and I don't think they'd be in the Imperial repertoire).

So, really, it's a mostly pointless addition; sufficiently advanced space power and air power fulfill virtually all the mission parameters sea power would from an interstellar perspective.

[foolish icarus]

In the case where space forces are absent or space superiority is contested sea navies fill the vital roles they always have. Even at the bottom of the gravity well under hostile space they are hardly worse off than ground based emplacements.

They're not useless, but I'm not keen on managing them as discreet units. I prefer that for offensive purposes land units are assumed to have enough ships to get around unless (on the defensive side of the equation) the catch-all 'fortifications' is sufficient to immobilize them.

[Symphony D.]

Originally Posted by foolish icarus

In the case where space forces are absent or space superiority is contested sea navies fill the vital roles they always have. Even at the bottom of the gravity well under hostile space they are hardly worse off than ground based emplacements.

Decloak: I'm looking at it more from an offensive angle. Ships are a lot harder to transport. Yes, the Imperium and its various foes have ships several kilometers long--transporting an aircraft carrier or its ilk is still not going to be easy and neither is landing it on a planetary surface or (much more particularly) getting it off that planet when you're done there. This remains an extreme logistical difficulty even for a civilization with that kind of capability.The bigger an object is, the more likely it has to be constructed on the surface if it's to be used at all--and thus the more unlikely it is to be used except in particularly dire or extended circumstances.

Given the Imperium has rather laborious construction procedures with the loss of STCs, it doesn't make sense to spend resources producing ships on the chance you won't have space superiority (and how will you get them to a battlefront if that's the case anyway?) when you could be spending those same resources ensuring you have space superiority to begin with and thus don't need ships. This logic applies both offensively and defensively.

If you're interested in defending a planet and its land and space defenses are already shored up, naval forces make a nice secondary development (which could, as suggested, be classified as armored forces; they're about the same as land forces in vulnerability because although specialized designs might be able to hide, they will inherently be smaller than what can be put on land [eg: anti-space weaponry], and thus weaker), but on the attack they're more or less completely worthless.

You can lump them under generic land defenses and it makes no real difference in performance, and they're not worth including as offensive units. Plus, a lot of the planets the Imperium is going to find itself on don't have notable oceans to begin with, further diminishing the need.

[labrat13]

I think perhaps having sea based artillery platforms (which is what a Navy tends to turn into) may well just be best handled as being called Fortification, as FI suggested. Saying that they can just be targeted from space would also discount the existence of static fortifications that -also- can be targeted from space and have the additional fault of being generally immobile. Everything can be targeted from space. Problem is, actually hitting it, as well as the fact that if space ships can hit targets on the surface, then targets on the surface can hit -them-.

I don't see how it's unreasonable to assume that a sea based Navy cant have developed methods to engage extra-planetary targets, be it either by huge missile batteries, defense lasers, coil guns, magic talking fish loaded slingshots or what have you. Remember, this is 40k, where the terms static tech level need not apply, and where the laws of physics take a back seat to convenience to game balance, and whatever the writers want they get.

If you want to get into a huge terrestrial naval engagement, you can easily assume that whatever forces you need to take it to the damn ships you can probably get, through whatever hokey methods seem appropriate.

[Fulton]

Ok, I’ve come to a conclusion regarding water based navies.

As has been pointed out, the rules are already very flexible in how you define your units. Fortifications could represent anything from a network of pillboxes and trenches, massive hive-fortresses bristling with heavy guns, or naval platforms.

Likewise, armoured and siege units can represent thousands of light hover tanks, a column of heavy Leman Russ tanks, or battleships armed with missile batteries that can bombard fortifications halfway around the planet.

So, we won’t make any specific naval units, but you can always include naval units in stories, background, etc.

[Fulton]

I've been extremely busy lately with end of year assignments and exams. My last exam is on November 7th, so I'm setting a due date for update 3 orders of Thursday November 8th. That way I can write up the update when I wake up on November 9th (I plan on sleeping in very late that day).

[Lord_Iggy]

Sounds good Fulton!

[Tyrion]

I may just be able to get orders in for that, we'll see

[Fulton]

How am I doing?

I've got a couple of questions for the players to consider if they've got a bit of spare time.

1. How do you want NPCs to be reflected in the game? Do you prefer they remain relatively passive and isolationist, or would you like to see more significant activity by non-player nations?

2. How is the balance of factions working out? I was worried at one point that an Imperial alliance could trump all if they worked together. Does anything think things are too unbalanced?

3. Do you think there is enough room for diplomacy in the game? There have been a few attempts at diplomacy (some successful, all interesting). Does the nature of the game and its factions cut down on diplomatic options?

4. Just in general, is there anything in my moderation thus far you would like to see changed? I know we've only had one flash point and two full updates, so it might be hard to tell, but what do you guys like best, and what do you guys like least?

[labrat13]

1) At this stage in the game, having the NPC's start rampaging about may be interesting, but may also result in a fair number of players simply being eaten. That is unless the NPC forces are in a similar state of general screwedupness. If your talking NPC's that were once players, have them start kicking people around about the time you suspect the player would have done so.

2) If the imps got together at this point, and started picking on single entities, then sure we'd have the upper hand. Later in the game this will likely be more true. But the balance will come from the simple fact that should the Imps begin all picking on one faction, they leave themselves open to being thwacked by 5 others. Also the imps aren't the only ones who can make alliances, they just have to work less at it.

3) Given that we have about 2 weeks or so to work on orders that (for me) take less then an hour to sort out, we have nothing But room for diplomacy. Its simply regrettable that we currently lack the drive at this point to do so. When we start getting Jugernaughts and little fish however, I have a feeling this will likely change.

4) So far so good, most of the 'trouble' that I've identified at this point are player based and should sort itself out. One may want to consider expanding the map at some point should more players arrive, and make this an even bigger mess then it is now, but to moderate that, you'd have to be out of your mind.

[Lord_Iggy]

1. I like NPCs being active.

2. It's hard to say, as there hasn't been too much warfare yet, fortunately.

3. Well, I've been working some diplo, and that's dealt with, I'm just waiting until closer to the update to send orders.

4. I like your update style.

[a_propagandist]

1. A mix of both, please.

2. So far, so good.

3. Also so far, so good.

4. Two requests: more flashpoints, bigger map.

It's been great so far. We need more players though.

[Fulton]

Thanks for the feedback so far. I value your opinions and will make changes accordingly.

I agree that more flash points would be a good idea. I will attempt to integrate more (both the conflict on Home and the Ork Rok were potential ones for this update, if I'd had more time). I promise at least one flashpoint in the next update cycle.

The map will stay as is for now, but expansion of the map is possible.

I agree that we need more players. Hopefully we will see an increase once they see how much fun you guys are having ^_^ players to fill NPC/dropped PC factions would be especially welcome.

You'll be seeing more NPC actions in the future, and maybe some stories from them.

Thanks for the votes of confidence so far. I'm glad to have players like you guys as well. I've somehow managed to get some of the best people on the site playing, so I see a bright future for the game.