Unofficial BTS 3.13 patch

[azzaman333]

Do missionarys cost money to keep? If they don't, why not just have the AI not use them while in Theocracy and they don't have the Holy City?

[Bhruic]

Originally Posted by kniteowl

i don't see the problem with gifting missionaries to the AI and the AI spreading the religion post 3.13.

There's no problem at all - as long as the AI isn't running Theocracy. If the AI is running Theocracy, that's a good indication it doesn't want non-state religions being spread. Accepting "gifted" Missionaries therefore becomes a way to "exploit" the AI's stupidity.

Bh

[Roland Johansen]

Originally Posted by azzaman333

Do missionarys cost money to keep? If they don't, why not just have the AI not use them while in Theocracy and they don't have the Holy City?

Yes, they have a maintenance cost.

[kniteowl]

Originally Posted by Roland Johansen

You don't think the AI should be allowed to refuse your 'gift' in cases where it is unwise for the AI to spread your religion?

Me personally? I'd be really mean and let the AI accept the Missionary then Let them delete the missionaries if they don't need them but then players would get annoyed wasting missionaries that never got the chance to spread.

but the only case I know of where gifting a missionary would be unwise for the AI would be in the case where it led to the Player Win through the AP Diplomatic Victory.

[Roland Johansen]

Originally Posted by kniteowl

Me personally? I'd be really mean and let the AI accept the Missionary then Let them delete the missionaries if they don't need them but then players would get annoyed wasting missionaries that never got the chance to spread.

but the only case I know of where gifting a missionary would be unwise for the AI would be in the case where it led to the Player Win through the AP Diplomatic Victory.

It's also disadvantageous to spread a second religion if you don't control the holy city. Multiple religions are usually only useful when you want to go for a cultural victory. Making the owner of the holy city earn more money is not a good thing.

Letting the AI accept the missionaries and then disband them when they can't use them would also work for me. A human player should notice that the religion is not being spread. It's probably easier to (program to) just let the AI not accept the missionaries when they're in Theocracy. Although this is based on the idea that an AI using theocracy is unwilling to spread a second religion and that might not be true. AI's usually seem to choose this civic purely for its military use and not for the religion blocking effects.

But if the AI accepts the missionaries when it is going for a cultural victory, then I think it behaves fine. It's an AI. You can't expect very detailed decision making.

[kniteowl]

well it's a choice, which is more beneficial getting the extra happy from temple for larger cities or denying the extra gold to shrine by not spread the religion with the missionary.

[DrewBledsoe]

On a similar theme, does the ai still sometimes adopt Theology when it has no state religion, or was that fixed a while back, and I just didn't notice?

Ok there are just about plausible reasons for a player to do this, but an ai isn't clever enough, and it used to do this sometimes with no religion at all, thus wasting money, and well its just silly.....


Advisor: Now we have discovered Theology sire, I suggest we adopt a Theocracy.
King: But we have no religion whatsoever in our lands, what possible benefit would it give?
A: Well sire, it, erm, well.....all our troops in cities with our state religion would become more fervent to the religious cause, and receive better training!
K: What cause?
A:Ah, erm, right....well it would stop heathen religions spreading to our people!
K: Heathen religions?
A: Yes sire, and we should smite them with all our religious fury!
K: And aren't by definition, the heathens defined as people without religion?
A: Yes for sure, sire!
K: Which we have none...
A: Ahhhhh, eeeerrrmmmm....
K: So you basically want us to embark on a religious Crusade, against ourselves?
A:..........(meep)
K: Well it isn't without precident. It happened In a place called Europe in the 13th century (or did I dream that)....anyways, not in my Kingdom..
A:.......{meeeeep}
K: Time for the Guards I think..

[jkp1187]

Originally Posted by Roland Johansen

It's also disadvantageous to spread a second religion if you don't control the holy city. Multiple religions are usually only useful when you want to go for a cultural victory. Making the owner of the holy city earn more money is not a good thing.

That depends, though. There may be times when it is to your advantage to join the religion of the Apostolic Palace even though you don't own the shrine, both for the AP production bonuses and for diplomatic bonuses if you want to curry favor with a civ whose running that religion. (Of course, I tend not to play pangaea, so the likelihood of a single religion being spread to all civs is low...)

From a game mechanic perspective, I'm iffy on the idea of having the AI flat-out refuse a gift, although I don't see anything wrong with the AI disbanding an unwanted gifted missionary.

[Roland Johansen]

Originally Posted by jkp1187

That depends, though. There may be times when it is to your advantage to join the religion of the Apostolic Palace even though you don't own the shrine, both for the AP production bonuses and for diplomatic bonuses if you want to curry favor with a civ whose running that religion. (Of course, I tend not to play pangaea, so the likelihood of a single religion being spread to all civs is low...)

From a game mechanic perspective, I'm iffy on the idea of having the AI flat-out refuse a gift, although I don't see anything wrong with the AI disbanding an unwanted gifted missionary.

I know it isn't always a good thing to refuse to accept the missionary, that's why I said 'usually'.

It might be a bit hard to write algorithms that recognise the select few situations where it is good to accept the religion. It's always hard to put human intuition into programming code.

[Dwayne Wade]

Ok I changed CvGameCoreDLL.dll in the Assets folder to CvGameCoreDLL313.dll to back it up and I copied the unofficial patch into the Assets folder. When I try to load up BTS it says there is an error. What am I doing wrong? (It never asks me if I want to overwrite the thing)

[chad187]

Originally Posted by JosEPh_II

A new folder.

Then read the readme.

Then place (copy/paste) the .dll file where the readme says to. Be sure to make a backup/copy of the original .dll and place it somewhere safe.

The extra files are for Serious Modders so just leave them alone. Unless you are a serious modder. Then you would know what to do with the extra files.

JosEPh

Ps. Several pages back there are detailed instructions. But they'll tell you the same thing I just posted.

what page #?

[JosEPh_II]

Originally Posted by Dwayne Wade

Ok I changed CvGameCoreDLL.dll in the Assets folder to CvGameCoreDLL313.dll to back it up

Now *cut* the CvGameCoreDLL313.dll and *paste it into a folder somewhere outside of the CIV game folder.

...and I copied the unofficial patch into the Assets folder. When I try to load up BTS it says there is an error. What am I doing wrong? (It never asks me if I want to overwrite the thing)

You can't have 2 .dlls in the Assests folder.

If you had 1st copy/pasted the original CvGameCoreDLL.dll into a folder outside of CIV game ( for example, I keep a special folder in My Documents called CIV Files). And then unzipped the Unofficial Patch (UOP for brevity) into it's Own folder, you could then copypaste the UOP into the Assests folder. When you click Paste in the Assests folder the pop up that asks for the overwrite would appear and you click OK.

Understand now my friend? Patience grasshopper. You will learn the ways.

JosEPh

[JosEPh_II]

Originally Posted by grumbler

Updated automated installer for the patch

Here guys try this.

JosEPh

[Minor Annoyance]

Regarding the gift missionary debate, does anyone know if the A.I. will change to theocracy just to keep religions out? Back during a warlords game I started sending missionaries to another civ, but after the first one they changed to theocracy. So does anyone know if the A.I. was programed to do that, or was it just a coincidence and it was planning a troop build up. If it's the former then it's definitely an exploit to be able to gift missionaries to theocratic A.I. empires.

[Bhruic]

Originally Posted by jkp1187

From a game mechanic perspective, I'm iffy on the idea of having the AI flat-out refuse a gift

From a game mechanic perspective, having Theocracy prevent me from spreading a religion to an AI city is pointless if I have the ability to gift a unit to that Civ and have them spread it themselves.

As for having the AI accept and then disband the unit, what is the point of that? Why would the AI bother to accept in the first place if it doesn't actually want the unit? Preventing an exploit is a good thing, punishing a player for attempting one isn't.

Bh

[PieceOfMind]

Bhruic, I'd like to make a suggestion for a fix, though I'm not sure whether this falls under the category of things you'd normally consider...

When you are attacking a city you can select a unit and hover over the city with the right mouse button held down to see your odds and see the best defender in the stack. However, when you have a spy in the city the spy stays on top so you cannot see the best defender. This is a bit annoying when I want to choose promotions on the attacker so as to counter the best defender. It takes too much brain effort to mentally think of which unit it must be that's on the top. At the moment I just move my spy out of the city while I attack.

Obviously the suggestion I'm making is to make the friendly spy not stay on top when you have a unit selected and hovering over something to attack. I haven't checked but the issue is probably exactly the same outside cities too.

[plesniak]

Originally Posted by PieceOfMind

Obviously the suggestion I'm making is to make the friendly spy not stay on top when you have a unit selected and hovering over something to attack. I haven't checked but the issue is probably exactly the same outside cities too.

I agree with this suggestion, I will ususally try and get my spy out of the city I am attacking before I start the attack...when I am unable to do this I find it quite frustrating when my spy is constantly on top of the city defenders.

[jkp1187]

Originally Posted by Bhruic

From a game mechanic perspective, having Theocracy prevent me from spreading a religion to an AI city is pointless if I have the ability to gift a unit to that Civ and have them spread it themselves.

As for having the AI accept and then disband the unit, what is the point of that? Why would the AI bother to accept in the first place if it doesn't actually want the unit? Preventing an exploit is a good thing, punishing a player for attempting one isn't.

Bh

I don't dispute your first point, but my concerns in the earlier post were focused on the idea of explicitly barring the AI from carrying out an action that would otherwise be available in human-on-human play. When it comes down to adjusting the rules, I'm favor of barring an action across-the-board (i.e., restrict the ability of anyone to gift missionary units to anyone,) rather than imposing that restriction on just the AI players. (After all, how would a human player react to receiving an unsolicited and unwanted missionary for a foreign religion that he would now have to pay maintenance costs for?)

On your second point, I would always rather improve the AI rather than adjust the rules to account for AI quirks. That said, it isn't clear to me that (a) this is a problem worth worrying about, or (b) that in a cost-benefit analysis, the marginal utility we'd get out of an improved AI would be worth whatever sweat that you (Bhruic) would have to put into to. So I'm inclined to think that if (a) is true, then the easiest solution is to eliminate gifting of missionaries for everyone. If (a) is not true, then that's that. (Naturally, all this is said from the perspective of one who surely isn't going to do any heavy-lifting on the coding....)

At the end of the day, I just believe that it's better to keep the rules even for everyone (human and AI) unless forced up against the wall (as the designers apparently were by vassal states, for instance.)

[jkp1187]

Originally Posted by Roland Johansen

I know it isn't always a good thing to refuse to accept the missionary, that's why I said 'usually'.

Quite so. I missed the conditional. Apologies!

[chad187]

Originally Posted by JosEPh_II

Here guys try this.

JosEPh

Does this automatically install the patch. Im currently in the middle of a game using the earth 34 civ mod will this make it so my colonies wont get declared war on as soon as i create them?