ALC Game 19 Pre-Game Thread: Playing as Gilgamesh

[Sisiutil]

All Leaders Challenge Pre-Game Show:
Game #19 - Sumer/Gilgamesh

In the next ALC game, I'll be playing as Gilgamesh, leader of Sumer. The purpose of this thread is to discuss, before the game, how to best exploit that particular leader's characteristics, which is the main feature and purpose of the ALC series. Just so we're clear, I'm playing with the Beyond the Sword expansion pack with its most recent official patch (3.13) and with Bhruic's unofficial patches as well. The difficulty level will be Emperor and the speed is Epic. Here's the fact sheet:

Traits: Creative (+2 culture per city. Double production speed of Theater, Coliseum, and Library.) and Protective (Archery and Gunpowder units receive Drill I and City Garrison I automatically; Double production speed of Walls and Castle).
Starting Techs: The Wheel and Agriculture
Unique Unit: Vulture (Replaces Axeman; Strength: 6, Movement: 1, Cost: 35; Unique Characteristics: +25% versus Melee units (25% less than the Axeman's regular bonus))
Unique Building: Ziggurat (Replaces Courthouse; Cost: 100; Requires: Code of Laws; Unique Characteristics: 20 hammers cheaper than the courthouse, only four are required to build the Forbidden Palace.)

This is the first ALC game to be played with one of the new BtS leaders, and Gilgamesh may be one of the best of the lot. His characteristics make me think he's a natural warmonger--this despite the lack of traits like Aggressive or Charismatic.

The most obvious evidence in favour of this is the unique unit. Vultures have one more strength than the Axemen they replace; the price they pay for this is a loss of half the 50% bonus regular Axemen get versus melee units. I should think, though, that the increase in strength more than makes up for it, especially since the Vulture is most likely to be going up against Archers, the AI's favourite early defensive unit. And that's the key, I think, with Sumer: you want to get to at least one AI rival before they make the transition from Archers to Chariots, Axemen, and the like. I'm looking, then, to perform an early rush with Sumer. However, that's made additionally challenging because of the starting techs. I'll have to research both Mining and Bronze Working and claim a source of copper in order to start building Vultures. Since Sumer has an early UU, I'll probably ask Welnic to check the start to ensure I'm not isolated.

Not that the starting techs are anything to disparage. The Wheel and Agriculture are both very good, very important early worker techs. Having them in hand means Gilgamesh can pursue a strategic tech like Bronze Working without sacrificing early development too much. I may start by building a Worker first, especially if there's corn, wheat, or rice in the capital's fat cross, since the Worker will therefore have plenty to do as soon as he appears.

Gilgamesh's Creative trait also lends itself to early land grabs, and in more ways than one. With Creative, you don't have to spend hammers on things like Monuments or Stonehenge. You can put them into barracks and units instead. The cheap libraries argue in favour of a specialist economy this time around.

I'm less enthusiastic about the Protective trait, as are many Civ gamers. As I've maintained before, this is a trait that suits the AI more than the human player. In the early going, it will be tough to make the most of it. Hunting and Archery are low priorities compared to Mining and Bronze Working for the UU. I'm kind of hoping for a campable resource in or near the start to justify researching Hunting--either that, or some good luck with goody huts.

I'm also not that impressed with the unique building. The Ziggurat makes Code of Laws an early tech priority. I'm tempted to try to build the Oracle, but Gilgamesh already has many other early tech targets (Mining/BW and possibly IW for the UU, Hunting/Archery for Protective Archers, Writing for cheap Libraries). It's nice that they're cheaper than Courthouses, but I don't see a big advantage to only requiring four (is that map size dependent, by the way?) to build the Forbidden Palace. I mean, usually I want to have quite a bit of territory before I build the FP to justify it. In many games I don't build it for quite some time, until some distant conquest is finished. I guess we'll just see how things pan out in this game.

EDIT: As several people pointed out below, Ziggurats are available with Priesthood. Well, that changes things. It means that the game's first maintenance-reducing building (and espionage-enhancing one, too) is available much, much earlier. Suddenly the Ziggurat looks more attractive.

Overall, then, Gilgamesh seems like a mix of strength and weakness: good starting techs, a strong early UU, and the Creative trait; but combined with a so-so UB and the weak Protective trait. It falls to us to make the most of the former and see what we can get out of the latter.

Now, we also need to discuss a couple of other game elements.

First off, what map type should I play? We haven't tried the new hemispheres map yet, so I'm thinking that one might be worth a shot.

Second, should I play with any of the optional game elements on? Aggressive AI in particular, since I'm planning on warmongering? I myself am leaning away from this for this game. My reasoning is that this is only the second ALC on Emperor, and the first one with all the AI changes in the new patch. The AI may be tough enough as it is without loading up on units to boot. I'd rather save Aggressive AI for the next two games (Ragnar and Shaka), which will both be played as Aggressive leaders.

However, I'll definitely consider turning the "choose religion when founded" option on, just for flavour. What does everyone think?

[LangeGeschichte]

Sound exciting, I can't wait.
One thing to note though: The Ziggurat's strength isn't that it costs less hammers, it's that it comes with priesthood, not CoL. With that in mind, maybe an espionage based early economy would be in order.

[Empiremaker]

The Ziggurat requires Priesthood not CoL, making CoL a low priority tech. I would do a vulture rush. I've tried a couple and vultures eat archers alive.

EDIT: X-post

[Bhruic]

Originally Posted by Sisiutil

The Ziggurat makes Code of Laws an early tech priority.

You mean Priesthood, right?

The tech cost to get to Priesthood is much lower than getting Code of Laws. Since you're looking at an early war situation, you'll likely end up with more cities than you can pay for easily - that's where getting a Courthouse (well, Ziggurat) early will come in very handy. Going for the Oracle would be a fringe benefit, imo.

First off, what map type should I play? We haven't tried the new hemispheres map yet, so I'm thinking that one might be worth a shot.

I'll vote for that, it generally makes for some decent maps.

Second, should I play with any of the optional game elements on? Aggressive AI in particular, since I'm planning on warmongering?

I'd play at least one game with 3.13 without AggAI on. If the AI changes are what they are cracked up to be, it should be a challenge without it.

Bh

[Fraulzar]

Very eager to watch how this ALC plays out! Sumeria has been one of my favorite BtS additions and it will be great fun to see Sis and the community put Gilgamesh through the paces.

The Ziggurat issue has been brought to light already, but I'd like to add that starting techs make pottery available as an initial research choice! This makes a quick cottage economy to power the early economy something to consider as well.

It's been my experience that Sumeria is well positioned to take and run with whatever the initial city site provides, basically allowing the first city's aptitudes to dictate the strategic approach to the early game. This flexibility melds well with creative and the UU and UB!

This one will be fun to watch.

[Gwil]

I personally would like to see Gilly use the tech path to Priesthood plus Creative trait to try and aim for a cultural victory. Diplomacy shouldn't be too much of a problem if you can ALSO harness a Vulture rush on 1/2 nearby rivals.

It would also seem perversely fun to try a cultural win keeping in mind what Gilly was attempting when we met him as the delectable Izzy. Also for me - with no offence intended - a lot of the most recent ALCs have emphasised the use of war in expansion, something which I have recently learnt a lot from in my own games. However I recently had a random select outing as Zara Yaqob (with only Tao/Islam founded) and snared a cultural win on Prince. I'd like to see a cultural win without over emphasis on religions - very much possible a with a "GA economy".

edit- just to say, Protective (and in the case of my zara game, double drilled Oroko (?) ) can keep the wolf from the door in terms of a peaceful fight to victory.

[Hackapell]

As others have mentioned, Ziggurats come with Priesthood, not Col, which make them much more versatile than regular courthouses. therefore, you have a lot of early reasearch priorites; BW for Vultures, Priesthood for Ziggurats, Archery for upgraded archers,but neither of the starting techs help in that regard.
I recommend you use an espionage economy, especially seeing as your early UU lends itself to that and that the GW is an excellent wonder for defense along with protective archers. Use Spies and Scientists(taking advantage of cheap libraries, your starting techs, and castles for more ) to fuel your expansion, while you steal from others and self research other techs.
I posted in another thread this dissertation:

Sumeria
Leader(s): Gilgamesh- Creative/Protective
Starting techs: The Wheel, Agriculture
UU: Vulture-replaces axeman: 6 , 25% vs. melee
UB: ziggurat-replaces courthouse: 90 , Requires priesthood to build

Gilgamesh is built for the early axe-rush. With more powerful axemen, earlier and cheaper courthouses, creative to push borders of conquered assets and allow you more room with dot-mapping, and protective to rush archers in to protect your cities, Gilga is an unstoppable rusher with which land you can settle back into a peaceful victory. The Wheel allows you to hook up resources earlier, and Agri gives you a leg up on an SE, seeing as Gilga has no direct economic bonus, but cheap libraries. Some problems are all the techs you need to acess all these early goodies. Too much of a god thing can hurt you. You need BW for vultures, Writing to get your economy going, archery to protect your axe rush gains, and a minimal religious strat to grab early courthouses. the cool thing though is tht you can use the oracle to slingshot yourself to a free tech since you'll be going ater that anyway. IT's just that the two starting techs don't have that great synegy with getting the techs you need to get your axerush going. Otherwise, Gliga is a great leader to use to understand the axerush, an then recover from the inevitable economic recession.

Using espoinage to recover from your large expansion should allow to exploit something you haven't used much and will allow you to catch up in the tech race. Pray for a nearby Mansa(so you can steal from him, of course)!

[Kietharr]

Suggested tech path:
Mining>BW>Mysticism>Polytheism>Preisthood>Animal Husbandry and Hunting, or Masonry and Monotheism if you don't have a religion founded nearby.

Now, the start may alter the viability of this path, but it nets you hit UU and UB very early on. His extra early courthouses will help pay for territory you will be conquering with your vulture rushes. Time is of the essance with Gilgamesh, you have to start moving early. The only thing Vultures fear right up to the Midevel era is Axemen, so chariots are a secondary priority to help stacks deal with them. AI favors archers over axemen for some odd reason though, so I doubt you'll need to deal with many of them if you get going early.

If you take out a rival or three (I've done it before, vultures are absolutely nasty on a level only matched by Immortals) early on the game is essentially in the bag provided you don't get seriously unlucky and have Mansa, Monty and Boudica buddied up under Buddism on the same continent with Emperor level mansa happily feeding the two big guys techs. Ziggurats are the only thing that is nearly as cool as the Zulu Ikhanda early expansion wise.

[Bhruic]

I'd agree with Kietharr's tech path, except I'd put Pottery after Priesthood (unless you have an obvious need for Animal Husbandry or Hunting).

Bh

[LightSpectra]

Giggles always seems to be the strongest whenever he appears in my games. I'm assuming that's because early courthouses = huge empire = tech lead?

[Capellan]

While I am certainly not an Emperor-level player, I think the Protective trait has more upside than most people suggest. Free Drill I is very nice because it leads into the higher level Drills, which reduce collateral damage to the unit. The AI loves using siege weapons to damage your stacks. High Drill stacks don't care, especially if you have a medic in there too. The free strikes don't hurt, either. You need to include some other troops to deal with the 'immune to free strikes' mounted units (at least until Riflemen, after which few of them are really a threat), but against everyone else, lots of extra free strikes make for a potent offensive and defensive unit.

Equally, City Garrison I isn't just handy on defense: it's good on offense too. Attack, take a city, watch the inevitable counter-attack break on the City Garrison troops. It also saves you from building specifically defensive troops to follow up your offensive stacks.

[uncarved block]

If you go with the Hemispheres map, you won't need to check for neighbors, especially if you choose the two continents option. Whether you'll get Copper, and a neighbor close enough to rush . . that's another story. Protective Archers can make pretty good fog-busters (saving your Vultures for the AI), though, and you're likely to have a fair amount of territory to light up on a Hemisphere map.

I had two AIs declare war on me around Construction in my first run on 3.13 at normal aggression, though they were Boudica and Survy. Aggressive AI might well wait for another run through. (And Boudica was at Pleased!) Nothing to add yet on the AI vs AI front, though.

With a little luck, Gilgamesh is a very strong leader. You might be headed toward one of your highest ALC scores yet.

[Tennyson]

I think you can use Gilgamesh to build a specialist economy and do an early rush, but it seems to me that what he's built for is a cultural victory. The Theater and Coliseum imply heavy use of the culture slider as opposed to gaining happiness resources, and protective also implies a defensive rather than expansive empire.

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Originally Posted by Blake

1) You do need to pick an appropriate difficulty level. Monarch is easy for any experienced player, I would say unlosable. Or it was unlosable in Warlords (pre-2.08 ) anyway.
2) If you're going to rush, have the courtesy of letting the AI know by turning on Aggressive AI. Be a wolf amongst the lambs if you want, but it's fairer to be a wolf amongst wolves.

Because Aggressive AI does not so easily fall victim to trivial rushes, it does play significantly harder - or at least, promotes a balanced game.

(As for why this is: There was way too much whining about the AI training too many units. So the default AI is pretty wussy, much like the default player. Aggressive AI embraces unit spam in all it's glory).

I would have liked to remove the Aggressive AI setting and replace it with Peaceful AI setting, making aggressive AI the default and making it clear what the suboptimal setting (for challenge) is, but that wasn't high on my list of things to get changed...

edit:
So to just spell it out.
Non-aggressive AI is non-competitive. It's what players wanted.

Just something to keep in mind as you sither over settings.

[Sjaramei]

Originally Posted by VoiceOfUnreason

Just something to keep in mind as you sither over settings.

I agree with this. Put Aggressive AI on (or at least consider it for the next game )

[slobberinbear]

Looking forward to the thread.

Seems to me that if Military, Research, and the Economy are the top three concerns in a civ game, Gilgamesh takes care of the first two right away with his UU and traits. Your economy is, frankly, the only question.

And that's where the UB comes in. The Ziggurat is not only available earlier (at Priesthood) but also costs 25% less than a regular courthouse. This is significant. This frees you up to pursue any form of economy you choose, bolstered by reduced maintenance costs.

You could do some serious REXing with Ziggurats + Creative.

Gilgamesh has to be one of the most versatile leaders in the game.

[Cookie Crumbs]

Originally Posted by slobberinbear

You could do some serious REXing with Ziggurats + Creative.

Seconding this. If you get stone and build the Great Wall for the great spy that will help you catch up with tech by stealing.

I do like the sound of Aggressive AI, let's see some carnage!

[LightSpectra]

Seconding this. If you get stone and build the Great Wall for the great spy that will help you catch up with tech by stealing.

The cost for stealing techs is so ridiculous that a single -- even two -- GS won't make up for the difference, I think.

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Move ZIG. For great justice.

So Ziggy lives in Priesthood. Which means that Code of Laws has less leverage than it usually does. Anybody got clever ideas on how to best take advantage of this?

[TRJS]

Have been playing a game as Gilly and found that my espionage rate is nice and high.

Only wonder built so far is the Great Wall and I settled the first great spy. This has allowed me to direct my espionage points nicely to current and future victims.

Economy is going so-so and I am tech leader. Playing on Prince mind you so not quite the same as emperor.

Anyhow, Gilly is a natural espionage focused leader and with his vultures can war well early.