NFL and a European Superbowl

[joycem10]

Ive been relatively unconcerned about the NFL's attempts to internationalize itself in the past. A preseason game here or there played in Tokyo, Dublin or Mexico City is no real big deal. Who cares about the preseason anyway.

Now its starting to get outta hand. When they played the regular season game in Mexico City between Arizona and San Fran it was a little annoying, but they were two bottom dwellers and its hard to muster sympathy for Arizona season ticket holders. Plus at least Mexicans care about football.

Now we have the much hyped NYG/Fins game in London, the possibility of each team playing 1 game outside the US in coming seasons, and the commish exploring the possibility of the superbowl in Europe.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3065254

Why?

Europeans hate football. NFL Europe, or Europa or whatever they call it never made a profit. Euros regularly trash and mock the game. Rejection of football is a point of honor with just about any Euro I've ever met. Your audience is and always will be American. Football is America's game.

Its hard enough to go to the superbowl now, add in the issues associated with getting a ticket and travelling to the game in Europe, and the only people going will be major corporate sponsors and Europeans.

What time will a Euro superbowl be played? London is 6 (i think) hours ahead? So do you play at midnight to keep the game on the same US sched, or do we get screwed and have the game on at 2 in the afternoon?

So yeah, lets move the superbowl, an unofficial American national holiday, to Europe so it can be sneered at while alienating the true fan base. Ingenious. Myabe we can celebrate the 4th of July in Paris.

[The Yankee]

Don't forget the plan to have the Bills play a home game each season in Toronto, though that is a more natural expansion than going right to London.

I doubt they'd put a Super Bowl in Europe any time soon, for the time differences and the fact that quite a few of the usual crowd may be unwilling to hop across the pond to attend. It would be a big promotion "You and four friends get to go to Paris for Super Bowl Fifty!" but probably not enough to consider it yet.

I'm not sure what the hell Goodell is talking about. It'd take massive resources to stick a Super Bowl in Europe. For what gain?

[tcjsavannah]

I think the NFL isn't as ridiculed as you think, and there are pockets of fanatical NFL devotion in Europe.. the parallels between American Football in Europe and Football in the US are strikingly similar.

I think the commissioner is just brainstorming. I think if you put a gun to his head and said "will we ever have a Super Bowl played in Europe, yes or no?" he'd answer no. But the NFL has always been one of the more proactive professional sports leagues, unlike MLB. I don't worry about it because I don't think it will ever happen. And I don't mind the regular season game, because they've got a time table set up where each team out of the 32 will do it once in an eight-year period. That's fine with me.

[GoodEnoughForMe]

Super Bowl in Europe won't happen. Too much outrage, lost viewweship, and lost sponsors. Goodell would be an idiot to try.

[Darkness]

Originally Posted by joycem10

Europeans hate football. NFL Europe, or Europa or whatever they call it never made a profit. Euros regularly trash and mock the game. Rejection of football is a point of honor with just about any Euro I've ever met. Your audience is and always will be American. Football is America's game.

Try getting your head out of your arse before you start posting nonsense, alright? There are plenty of Euro's who love football. Don't be like some braindead parrot and repeat the loud voices that complain and say stupid things like that. Make up your own mind, preferably by getting informed about a few more Euro's than the few you've met, and then try saying it a bit less sounding like a crying baby...


I totally agree with tcjsavannah...
I find the paralels between soccer in the US and football in Europe very striking.

Now personally, as a European who loves football (yes, they do exist!), I like the NFL experiments outside the US, and if the NFL ever decided to play a game in the Netherlands I'd try to get tickets no matter which team was playing. I think this is a wonderful attempt to create even more European enthousiasm for football.
I don't see a Superbowl outside of the US happening though. That's like an extra holliday in the US. I doubt the NFL will ever truely try to change that very well established tradition.

OK, I've said my piece, you can go back to your rant now...

[The Yankee]

So will there be another attempt at an NFL Europe?

[Darkness]

Originally Posted by The Yankee

So will there be another attempt at an NFL Europe?

I dont't think so. The level of play is simply not comparable to 'regular' NFL. I went to see Amsterdam Admirals versus Rhein Fire this spring and the level of play was quite low compared to NFL. Also NFL europa had no continuity. Good players left after one year, so there was no team identity for the fans to cheer for.

The good part of NFL europa is that it got people like me interested in the NFL. Kurt Warner was (also for a lot of other Dutch fans) the reason for me to start watching NFL games.
The 1999 season was the first season that the NFL was broadcast in the Netherlands and I started watching because I wanted to see how the Amsterdam Admirals' star QB did in the NFL. So I started watching and cheering for the Rams, which is probably a big reason why I am a Rams fan right now (as much as that sucks this season)...

[joycem10]

Some examples, most of which mirror what people I've met in Europe (admittedly only London, Dublin and Manchester) have to say about football.

"Soccer World Cup?? What is this? I thought it was the Football World Cup or have the Americans re-named it? Stick to your Yankieball and let the rest of us get on with a decent sport."

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=23807

"But Europe hasn't American Football!I don't know any leagues of that sport. We have a similar and better sport the american football:RUGBY its much better!
There's only American Football in US and Canada!I think"

"OK, you're right, but in most of the european countries american football isn't a profissional sport and it isn't popular,
european's favourite sports:
1-Football, of course
2-Rugby
3-Basketball
4-Handball
5-Volley
...........
and after many sports american football!"

"- False. No one here gives a damn about American football, "

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=107518

"American Football is wannabe Rugby for the weak hearted. I'm sorry if anyone is a fan of it but just look at how much padding and protection they wear! In Rugby you wear colthes and that is all."

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=154289

"American Football may be physically demanding, but only in the sense that there's lots of collisions. In terms of musculature, conditioning, and full-body strength, it's an awful sport (as evidenced by the fact that many NFL players are overweight)."

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=199861

"Gridiron is where two lines of people dressed up in oversize novelty foam pads bounce into each other, while a frightened bloke called a quarterback desperately throws the ball away before anyone can bump into him, hoping a fast-running player on his team will be able to catch it further up the field. And every time a play fails, they'll spend fifteen minutes perving on some scantily clad girls with pom-poms dancing about, before deciding to do go and bounce into each other again. And that's why it's the only sport in the world where at its biggest event (the Superbowl) spectators are likely to say to each other "wake up, it's the half-time break -- something interesting might be about to happen".

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=5995876

"oh, and BTW, football here really means it, not the rugby mutation that is American Football (is it true that only one person on the American footbal team is only allowed to use his feet? odd name for the sport!!)

Gridiron please!

Let us mutilate their attempt at a sport as well."

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=141017

"American football or renamed by me American soccer is a crap game. I turned on a game, went out for 4 hours, came back and the game was still playing. Its so boring. the game stops and starts. You have a play, then the game stops, new players are put on, the managers have 5 mins to construct a new play and then it starts again. the game fits american tv because there are so many breaks and thus lots of time for adverts"

"Yankeeball ain't that bad. I think thats what I'll be calling it from now on."

"It's football, football, football.

The other one should be called the "Girlie, Wimpy, protection-wearing-excuse for rugby."

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=23052

"American football should be called that pansy-ass sport that those Americans wusses play."

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=96614

Thats just a sample. You can find more by googling "gridiron" since many Soccer lovers go nuts over the mere fact that football has the same name as their precious sport.

[downtown]

Originally Posted by The Yankee

Don't forget the plan to have the Bills play a home game each season in Toronto, though that is a more natural expansion than going right to London.

The NFL would like the Bills to move to Toronto. As it stands, an awful lot of folks from the area make the hike to attend games in Buffalo, so like you said, its just a logical extension of the market.

Yeah, I'm with everybody else on the European superbowl. I'm all for playing regular season games all over the world..maybe this will help get more people playing football, which will help broaden our talent base, like it has with baseball and basketball

[Darkness]

Originally Posted by joycem10

Some examples, most of which mirror what people I've met in Europe (admittedly only London, Dublin and Manchester) have to say about football.

"Soccer World Cup?? What is this? I thought it was the Football World Cup or have the Americans re-named it? Stick to your Yankieball and let the rest of us get on with a decent sport."

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=23807

"But Europe hasn't American Football!I don't know any leagues of that sport. We have a similar and better sport the american football:RUGBY its much better!
There's only American Football in US and Canada!I think"

"OK, you're right, but in most of the european countries american football isn't a profissional sport and it isn't popular,
european's favourite sports:
1-Football, of course
2-Rugby
3-Basketball
4-Handball
5-Volley
...........
and after many sports american football!"

"- False. No one here gives a damn about American football, "

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=107518

"American Football is wannabe Rugby for the weak hearted. I'm sorry if anyone is a fan of it but just look at how much padding and protection they wear! In Rugby you wear colthes and that is all."

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=154289

"American Football may be physically demanding, but only in the sense that there's lots of collisions. In terms of musculature, conditioning, and full-body strength, it's an awful sport (as evidenced by the fact that many NFL players are overweight)."

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=199861

"Gridiron is where two lines of people dressed up in oversize novelty foam pads bounce into each other, while a frightened bloke called a quarterback desperately throws the ball away before anyone can bump into him, hoping a fast-running player on his team will be able to catch it further up the field. And every time a play fails, they'll spend fifteen minutes perving on some scantily clad girls with pom-poms dancing about, before deciding to do go and bounce into each other again. And that's why it's the only sport in the world where at its biggest event (the Superbowl) spectators are likely to say to each other "wake up, it's the half-time break -- something interesting might be about to happen".

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=5995876

"oh, and BTW, football here really means it, not the rugby mutation that is American Football (is it true that only one person on the American footbal team is only allowed to use his feet? odd name for the sport!!)

Gridiron please!

Let us mutilate their attempt at a sport as well."

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=141017

"American football or renamed by me American soccer is a crap game. I turned on a game, went out for 4 hours, came back and the game was still playing. Its so boring. the game stops and starts. You have a play, then the game stops, new players are put on, the managers have 5 mins to construct a new play and then it starts again. the game fits american tv because there are so many breaks and thus lots of time for adverts"

"Yankeeball ain't that bad. I think thats what I'll be calling it from now on."

"It's football, football, football.

The other one should be called the "Girlie, Wimpy, protection-wearing-excuse for rugby."

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=23052

"American football should be called that pansy-ass sport that those Americans wusses play."

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=96614

Thats just a sample. You can find more by googling "gridiron" since many Soccer lovers go nuts over the mere fact that football has the same name as their precious sport.

So what? That's just the opinion that some people have. Not all Europeans are like that. You don't see me saying that all Americans hate soccer, so why should these posts prove that all Europeans hate football?

I find it really odd that this has you so pissed off...
In 1994 the soccer World Cup was in the US. We didn't cry about that one either (and that's only held every 4 years), so why are you so upset about something that will probably never happen. So what if they play a regular season game in London. People here are very enthousiastic about that. The game was totally sold out (88000 seats in Wembley stadium) extremely fast. The first 40000 tickets were gone in 90 minutes, so don't say there's no-one in Europe that likes football...

[joycem10]

Originally Posted by Darkness

I find it really odd that this has you so pissed off...

1, Im a season ticket holder. I will likely have to pay for a game I cant attend if and when the Steelers ever play a "home" game away from Heinz Field. Although the Rooney's are good people, they may not screw season ticket holders.

2. I'd like to go to another Superbowl sometime. Its hard enough and expensive enough to do it now, let alone if they put one in Europe.

3. If a superbowl is played in Europe and televised here at 2pm, i wont have a good excuse to blow off work the next day. When the game, and the drinking, ends at 11, work is not even an option. Think of the superbowl parties wrapping up at 7pm.

4. The attitude of most Europeans, yourself excluded, has always annoyed me. I dont think all of you hate football, but the vocal majority who scream at you everytime you use the word 'football' drive me nuts.

[tcjsavannah]

Yes, because the internet has always been a statistically valid sample space of how the world feels on any topic.

[Azale]

Try asking a group of Americans their feeling on soccer...

But my feelings on a Superbowl in Europe mirrors joycems pretty closely. The difference between a Superbowl being in Europe and the World Cup being in the USA...well, the World Cup is constantly moved around the world. The Superbowl has just recently moved outside of the Miami-San Diego-Pasadena rotation

[Marla_Singer]

I tend to agree with Joycem actually. American football will never be popular in Europe. If a sport of that category would have to spread over Europe one day, there are higher chances that it would be rugby for obvious cultural connections. But even this isn't granted. Outside the British Isles, France and timidly Italy, rugby is totally marginal in the rest of Europe.

As for the parrallel between NFL football in Europe and FIFA football in the US, I'm sorry but I totally disagree with those saying that the evolution were similar:
- There's no professional American football league in Europe similar to the MLS in the US.
- There are no millions of affiliated players of American football in Europe.
- There's no "American football mom" phenomena in Europe.
- Several dozens of American soccer players play in European Championships. How many European players are they in the NFL?

Well, as a matter of fact, soccer is significantly more develloped in the US than American football will actually ever be in Europe. I know that soccer remains marginal in the US, but there's an enough strong minority interested in that sport to organize a profitable domestic professional league and to make of the US national team a decent squad on the international level. I doubt this will ever happen in Europe. You will never see a Beckham of the NFL ending his carreer in the "Barcelona Donkeys" or whatever.

Now this being said, I'm sure some European crowds would be curious to see an NFL parade game once in a while. However, I'm just sceptic about the idea that they would actually like to play it seriously by themselves afterwards. In my opinion, Ice hockey has stronger chances to grow in Europe than American football or baseball has.

[The Yankee]

Originally Posted by Darkness

I dont't think so. The level of play is simply not comparable to 'regular' NFL. I went to see Amsterdam Admirals versus Rhein Fire this spring and the level of play was quite low compared to NFL. Also NFL europa had no continuity. Good players left after one year, so there was no team identity for the fans to cheer for.

The good part of NFL europa is that it got people like me interested in the NFL. Kurt Warner was (also for a lot of other Dutch fans) the reason for me to start watching NFL games.
The 1999 season was the first season that the NFL was broadcast in the Netherlands and I started watching because I wanted to see how the Amsterdam Admirals' star QB did in the NFL. So I started watching and cheering for the Rams, which is probably a big reason why I am a Rams fan right now (as much as that sucks this season)...

I suppose you would be right. It'd be pretty hard to just stick in an NFL minor league of people that couldn't make the 55-man roster or need some seasoning and expect it to be big.

But if there is a shot at expanding the brand, how would it be done?

[The Yankee]

Originally Posted by downtown

The NFL would like the Bills to move to Toronto. As it stands, an awful lot of folks from the area make the hike to attend games in Buffalo, so like you said, its just a logical extension of the market.

Yeah, I'm with everybody else on the European superbowl. I'm all for playing regular season games all over the world..maybe this will help get more people playing football, which will help broaden our talent base, like it has with baseball and basketball

All that and sadly, Buffalo is a market on life support. The depressed Western New York means people are moving out. Stick it in vibrant Toronto and it'd have a shot.

[Darkness]

Originally Posted by Marla_Singer

In my opinion, Ice hockey has stronger chances to grow in Europe than American football or baseball has.

True, but that might be partially due to the fact that Europe already has a pretty big winter sports tradition and the fact that there are a lot of Scandinavians, Czechs and Slovaks playing in the NHL.

@all: Please also note that I am not trying to say that the NFL should play the superbowl in Europe. It's fine staying in the US. Gives me a great excuse to take the monday after off from work. Game starts at midnight in the Netherlands. I just think that some regular season games in Europe would be great. I'd love seeing the Rams (once they're actually decent again!!!!) play here in De Kuip stadium in Rotterdam, because I would definately be there with some friends.


@the Yankee: Football is a minor sport in Europe. Here in The Netherlands kids mostly play soccer, (field) hockey and tennis. Football simply isn't that popular among the young kids, so there's no big foundation for local leagues. Now that may change in the future. Hell, we Dutch have no cricket youth leagues either, but the sport is growing among adults (like Stapel for example). Maybe something like that can happen with football also, but something like that takes time. The game in London is a great way for the NFL to showcase itself here in Europe, but I don't think that at this time another NFL europe could be succesful (for the reasons I posted above).

[El Justo]

cool remarks Darkness now i know why you're a rams fan!

i don't mind the exhibition games being played abroad but regular season games or --gasp!-- the superbowl being played overseas is an anathema to me.

but at the same time, i recognize the nfl's attempts to reach the global markets. so i guess overseas games may be a 'necessary evil' as they say.

i will admit though that i softened my stance a little after reading Darkness' remarks about actually wanting to attend a game in person

[Hitro]

Originally Posted by Marla_Singer

You will never see a Beckham of the NFL ending his carreer in the "Barcelona Donkeys" or whatever.

That's wrong. If they money is right some would do it. American Football actually has a strong minority following in Germany. Consider that 5 out of the 6 teams of the late NFL Europe were located in Germany (the sixth in Amsterdam).

It had a decent following and for many years free TV broadcasts. It was also a place for prospect or mediocre former NFL players to spend the off-season. In fact when I watched the superbowl they were always a couple of player who played in Germany before.

The problem was the lack of interest outside Germany (and apparently the Netherlands) and some bad management. Also the hype of American football in the 90s subsided in this decade coinciding with an even bigger hype of (real ) football and the traditional second tier sports like handball or ice hockey. It probably also "coincided" with the general drop of pro-Americanism after 2000 (now who might be responsible for that?).

And therein lies the truth about the chances of American football in Europe. Real football is so established as a first sport in the vast majority of countries and a strong contender in all others that the aim should be for the spot behind that. That probably not continent-wide but instead in certain key "markets".
The traditional rugby countries (as mentioned by Marla) are in my view absolutely not the right places to look for but rather those without any established sport of that kind.

A clear target could be Eastern Germany, with cities like Leipzig who have no top-level club of any sort in any sport. Instead they choose London, which sounds cooler in America itself but the fans there mostly think the idea sucks anyway and in London noone besides corporate sponsored people and expatriate Americans will care anyway.

However, I'm just sceptic about the idea that they would actually like to play it seriously by themselves afterwards.

Certainly not. The clear advantage of real football - i.e. that you need virtually no equipment, a coke can may do the job - is unbeatable. Rugby also needs less.

In my opinion, Ice hockey has stronger chances to grow in Europe than American football or baseball has.

Now that I don't get. Ice hockey is already well-established in several European countries, in particular in the North, East and Centre. In other words, in all places where there even is some ice at least some time of the year. And it has an even worse disadvantage than American football as there are few places where you can actually play it.

And really, can you imagine Spaniards picking up ice (!) hockey?

[El Justo]

what's with this "real football" nonsense? do you realize how insulting and insensitive that is? really?

the fact of the matter is that a majority of gridiron fans in the US could give a rat's toosh whether folks overseas enjoy the game. i mean, i certainly do not care. however, i find it irritating and condescending that non-americans like to belittle a sport that, quite frankly, they know very little about (save for the few who do follow it abroad). it strikes me as not only ignorant but arrogant...