SGOTM 06 - Murky Waters

[klarius]

Originally Posted by Gnejs

#3 out of FP city t69
#2,#4 out of Athens t47, t80

(#2,#3 out of Athens t47, t72)
(#4 out of FP city t78)

If we are lucky we get 3 scientists by t69. This seems about equal with using Athens for #1 (t39), FP/Spice for #2 (t58), Athens for #3 (t68), but without risking a prophet.

Or we could do
Athens #1 (t39)
Athens #2 (t55)
FP city #3 (t69) or Spicy city (t70)

I think I would rather avoid the Prophet if at all possible.

Well, an engineer late isn't any better.
Another idea is Athens #1, Timbuktu #2 (at decent odds), Athens #3 and a sure scientist #4 out of FP/spice city, if still necessary.

[Erkon]

Originally Posted by Gnejs

...
Conclusion: We don't need any stinking libraries.
...

Burn the libraries! Make a bonfire worthy of the Gods!!!

Hmm, I'm so confused. Either klarius is a genius, or a fool... Does revolting to OrgRel save us turns on the Pyramids or cost us turns?

Could you all please help me with a summary? Have I understood this correct:

Settle FP-city asap.
Settle RiceCity (somewhere close to Rice) - klarius OR
Settle Dye-City Spice-City - Gnejs OR
Settle Ivory-city - LC

Then we need to agree if Timbuktu will work scientists or not (focus on settlers or research), also considering the risk of generating a Great Priest ()

Then we have a build sequence in Athens (WB->Pyramids?)

Finally we have the build sequence of London (axes?)

Apart from the above we have a healthy amount of MM, that will drive Murky back to the dance floor...

Impossible? Merde! Mon dieu... Show some faith, you heathen! Timbuktu will switch to scientist when the pyramids are complete. Until then it will churn out settlers...

Research path: maths, sailing, calendar, construction. Skip lightbulbing Machinery. Insert Mono wherever it fits.

PS: the core cities will either be abandoned to the barbs when these cities are of no use, or will run merchants. Don't worry...

[Erkon]

Originally Posted by Gnejs

#1000

Doh! How could I miss....

[LowtherCastle]

During my turnset I'm building nothing but courthouses and temples...

Gnejs is pretty convincing. Erkon, is he drunk off his a$$? Since we don't want a late ge, sounds like the Athens>Athens>FP City is the best of the best.

If we're freeing up TImbuktu for production, then I'm not in such a hurry to get Ivory CIty.

Gnejs, have you tried your unrevolting plan including completing Mono after settling Spcie City? No artists that way. And our opponent doesn't get the extra cultural defense.

[klarius]

What I see more and more is that 2 more scientist cities don't help.
So it's either FP or spice.
If we settle FP, we shouldn't settle spice. Then, IMO, the best use for the settler near London is a city near gold to speed up math.
That's either on the rice if we are still interested in the bridge, or SE for a decent production city long term.
Any other long term valuable cities delay math and put the settler or London in danger.

Organised will not speed up pyramids, but also not delay much. IMO, the "forget about stinking libraries" is as wrong as the constantly ignoring forges, so I still think organised has a value.
I didn't see any breakdown how we get to the beakers we need. Running scientists for 3 GS is only 1800 beakers (3600 if we have 2 more cities near the treshold). Lately we seem to have added construction (750) and machinery (1502) as research goals to our initial estimate.

For Athens, I think we should really go wb, granary pyramids. Pyramids directly doesn't help much as we are limited by pre-chops anyway and granary comes at about the right time (no matter if organised or not).

London build order (depending on all other decisions):
axe-axe-(N*axe)-settler N=0..infinity

BTW, I would definitely like IW before construction. CR2 swords might well be enough for our first ambush and we should cut some jungle, like on the hills near London.

[Mîtiu Ioan]

Originally Posted by klarius

BTW, I would definitely like IW before construction. CR2 swords might well be enough for our first ambush and we should cut some jungle, like on the hills near London.

Did you mean here "intercontinental ambushes" ?

[Gnejs]

Originally Posted by klarius

Well, an engineer late isn't any better.
Another idea is Athens #1, Timbuktu #2 (at decent odds), Athens #3 and a sure scientist #4 out of FP/spice city, if still necessary.

Or Athens #1, Spice city #2, FP city #3, (Athens #4).

[Gnejs]

Originally Posted by LowtherCastle

During my turnset I'm building nothing but courthouses and temples...

Gnejs is pretty convincing. Erkon, is he drunk off his a$$? Since we don't want a late ge, sounds like the Athens>Athens>FP City is the best of the best.

If we're freeing up TImbuktu for production, then I'm not in such a hurry to get Ivory CIty.

Gnejs, have you tried your unrevolting plan including completing Mono after settling Spcie City? No artists that way. And our opponent doesn't get the extra cultural defense.

We delay Maths by one-two turns, but otherwise it is ok I guess.

[Gnejs]

Originally Posted by klarius

What I see more and more is that 2 more scientist cities don't help.
So it's either FP or spice. Why not both?
If we settle FP, we shouldn't settle spice. Then, IMO, the best use for the settler near London is a city near gold to speed up math.
That's either on the rice if we are still interested in the bridge, or SE for a decent production city long term.
Any other long term valuable cities delay math and put the settler or London in danger.

Organised will not speed up pyramids, but also not delay much. IMO, the "forget about stinking libraries" is as wrong as the constantly ignoring forges, so I still think organised has a value. klarius, could you please elaborate. Did you see my calculation about the break-even of a forge? I think the break-even of a library will be pretty poor also considering that we need to restrict growth in FP city or Athens in order to build it soon enough to matter.
I didn't see any breakdown how we get to the beakers we need. Running scientists for 3 GS is only 1800 beakers (3600 if we have 2 more cities near the treshold). Lately we seem to have added construction (750) and machinery (1502) as research goals to our initial estimate.

2640 beakers from scientists in FP city, Spice city, Athens by turn 64. If we run 5 scientists in Timbuktu for the final 20 turns (we will probably have calendar and much food by then) this is another 600 beakers. Settle 2xgold city and 2xgold city north and we might be able to output 30 beakers/turn from commerce which gives another 1920 beakers. This is 5160 beakers by turn 64.

For Athens, I think we should really go wb, granary pyramids. Pyramids directly doesn't help much as we are limited by pre-chops anyway and granary comes at about the right time (no matter if organised or not).

Agree here. Put 70 hammers into a granary and chop a forest outside fat cross for the final 20 hammers.

London build order (depending on all other decisions):
axe-axe-(N*axe)-settler N=0..infinity

BTW, I would definitely like IW before construction. CR2 swords might well be enough for our first ambush and we should cut some jungle, like on the hills near London.

Let's wait and see. IW is nice because I am sure it will pop us Iron at Timbuktu.

[Gnejs]

Beaker count revisited

These are the essential techs:

Mathematics 536 +20% = 447
Sailing 214 +20% = 178
Calendar 750 +40% = 536
IW 429 +20% = 358
Compass 858 +20% = 715
Metal Casting 965 +40% = 689
Macinery 1501 +20% = 1251
Optics 1287 +40% = 919
Astronomy 4290 +40% = 3064

Then we have a few optional:
Hunting 85 = 85
Archery 128 +20% = 107
Construction 750 +40% = 536

The grand total summing up all techs is 8885 beakers. If we lightbulb astronomy using 2 GS the total is 5821 beakers. If we also lightbulb Optics we are down to 4902 beakers. If we instead lightbulb machinery we need 4570 beakers.

Compare this to the 5160 beakers that I estimate we can have by T64 if we settle Spice city and FP city asap. My conclusion is that we can have enough research without either libraries or lighthouses, just a simple granary in each of Athens, FP city and Spice city.

Also, at T64 we will have about 20 scientists running for 120 beakers per turn (+say 30 from commerce). We can self-research Optics in 6 turns...

[LowtherCastle]

End of the OR confusion?
This is the same basic problem that Obormot talked about with building Parthenon when you're a productive Civ. The 25% OR bonus is halved for builds that get the 100% stone bonus because you're only getting 12.5% bonus on the final production value each turn. So building the Pyramids, ideally it takes you 16 turns to recoup the hammers lost for missing 2 turns from revolts. At 14h/t (not ideal, now it's down to a 10.7% bonus) it would take us 19 turns.

But there's a catch. We're also getting a 11h/chop bonus. 5 chops @11h/chop = 55h. So we actually overtake the non-OR solution on the 3rd turn (that is, after the two turns of revolt).

But, there's another catch. How much do the 2 turns of revolt plus finishing Mono delay researching Maths? If the delay takes us past the time it takes to chop the 5 forests, then the OR solution is slower by that many turns, even though its hammers are already [(3h/t) * (# of turns) - 1h] ahead.

I haven't figured out the delay, because it involves other decisions, such as where to settle and how that affects our research.

[LowtherCastle]

Originally Posted by Gnejs

Beaker count revisited

These are the essential techs:

Calendar 750 +40% = 536
Metal Casting 965 +40% = 689
Optics 1287 +40% = 919
Astronomy 4290 +40% = 3064

Construction 750 +40% = 536

Correct me if I'm wrong, klarius, but my understanding of the mechanics is that these techs all get a 20% bonus, not 40%. As I understand it, you get 20% for each path to a tech you have followed (going back only one level to determine paths). You get 40% if you have followed 2 alternate paths to a tech in advance (Masonry and Priesthood have 2 paths). 60% for 3 paths (like Writing).

The above techs have only 1 path, each involving 2 required (not alternate) techs in the preceding level.

[LowtherCastle]

Originally Posted by Gnejs

We can self-research Optics in 6 turns...

I don't know why you guys can't SEE this , but we want Optics as early as possible, because then our caravels can get a head start on circumnavigation. We also want to have klarius' triremes on each side of our continent, ready for upgrading (65 each). (East side in farthest east cultural borders (Timbuktu, Carthage or ...?)

THis means that it's useful for us to finish our research long before we've finished our lightbulb creation.

EDIT: Sorry, I forgot to include this in the Original BC Astro Challenge. So sue me.

If we re-visit klarius' discovery:



We can assume that this is Ragnar's capital after his 150 expansion. (Gnejs, you can check this by examining your 1780bc and 1750 bc saves, I think, assuming the warrior got there by 1780bc).

Thus, galleons will transport our units in 1 turn. With circumnavigation, we will gain 1 turn movement with our units after we capture his city, because the galleon will enter the city, units disembark same turn. Scratch that, I forgot that his borders would have to extend to ocean tiles in that case. BUt it would still be interesting for you to check teh saves, Gnejs, because his capital might be inland or on a fjord.

[Gnejs]

Originally Posted by LowtherCastle

End of the OR confusion?
This is the same basic problem that Obormot talked about with building Parthenon when you're a productive Civ. The 25% OR bonus is halved for builds that get the 100% stone bonus because you're only getting 12.5% bonus on the final production value each turn. So building the Pyramids, ideally it takes you 16 turns to recoup the hammers lost for missing 2 turns from revolts. At 14h/t (not ideal, now it's down to a 10.7% bonus) it would take us 19 turns.

But there's a catch. We're also getting a 11h/chop bonus. 5 chops @11h/chop = 55h. So we actually overtake the non-OR solution on the 3rd turn (that is, after the two turns of revolt).

But, there's another catch. How much do the 2 turns of revolt plus finishing Mono delay researching Maths? If the delay takes us past the time it takes to chop the 5 forests, then the OR solution is slower by that many turns, even though its hammers are already [(3h/t) * (# of turns) - 1h] ahead.

I haven't figured out the delay, because it involves other decisions, such as where to settle and how that affects our research.

Completion of the Pyramids is limited by the time that we can complete Maths and bring in our chops, not by production. I get granary+Pyramids t19 without OR, t21 with OR. We will also be delaying axes and/or settlers out of London and Timbuktu by two turns and delaying our research towards our end goal by three-four turns (could become more if we take into account putting Athens into growth mode 2 turns later, settling all future cities 2 turns later etc).

See my beaker analysis above: We don't need any libraries, nor do we need any lighthouses.
See my hammer analysis further up: We don't need any forges.
See my granary analysis somewhere up there also: We need to chop two forests for quick granaries in FP city, Spicy city. OR doesn't change this!

Conclusion: Organized Religion should be skipped

[jesusin]

Originally Posted by Erkon

Ok, guys. I take a few days of SGOTM-vacation to try to complete BOTM1, and what happens? Everyone enters freekin builder mode! Let's see about the suggestions so far (I love brainstorming )

Tech Math asap - check
Build pyramids asap - check
Tech Sailing & Calendar - check
Tech Construction when suitable - check
Tech pre-requisites for astro - check
Lightbulb astronomy - check
Lightbulb optics is we have an extra GS (3 instead of 2) - check
Build cities that are good for scientists / commerce - check
Build cities that are good for hammers / our army - check
Conquer the world - check

So far so good. What about buildings?
Granaries - probably good for most cities
Barracks - only useful in land unit cities that are dedicated to build units
Libraries - only useful in cities that will run 5-6 scientists
Lighthouse - perhaps useful in one or two cities
Did I miss any?

What about units?
Settlers - check
Workers - check
Axes - check
Cats - check
WE - check
Warriors for garrison - check
WB for exploration - check
Galley/Caravel/Galleon - check
Did I miss any?

What is complicated? We build the cities that can run scientists, then the cities that can produce units. To do this we need settlers, workers, axes and warriors. When we have astro, we invade and win this game. Any strategy that deviated from this strategy is a poor one

Finally, the TIMING: while we accumulate GPP for the GS, we build cats and WE. As soon as we have completed Construction, there is thus no time for settlers and workers, only units. So, we tech:
Maths
Sailing
Calendar
Construction
MC, IW, Compass, Machinery, Optics, Astronomy

Any investment we do must pay back BEFORE the astronomy moment. Revolting once must thus put us in a better position at astro-moment. And all the cities we plan to build needs to be in place before Construction, because then we don't have time to build any more settlers. And the unit building cities needs the granaries/barracks as well before construction-moment.

I support anything that follow these rough plans. The most obvious way forward is to:
Build the pyramids asap in Athens while we grow to size=large
Build units in London (no scientists)
Build settlers in Timbuktu (no scientists)
Settle the conf miss in the next GP-farm.

Did I miss anything? Please convince me that I'm wrong

I fully agree with our captain (for once)

[LowtherCastle]

Originally Posted by Erkon

Finally, the TIMING: while we accumulate GPP for the GS, we build cats and WE. As soon as we have completed Construction, there is thus no time for settlers and workers, only units.

This is not necessarily true. The more units we build in advance, the higher our unit cost, thus slowing our research, since Gnejs is using our .

Steenkin' libraries get us to 0% research sooner, thus enabling us to stockpile and units and get our caravels out sooner.

Building another production city might enable us to build units at a faster rate just before Astro so we don't accumulate idle unit costs.

We need to strike a balance.

[Gnejs]

Originally Posted by LowtherCastle

This is not necessarily true. The more units we build in advance, the higher our unit cost, thus slowing our research, since Gnejs is using our .

Steenkin' libraries get us to 0% research sooner, thus enabling us to stockpile and units and get our caravels out sooner.

Building another production city might enable us to build units at a faster rate just before Astro so we don't accumulate idle unit costs.

We need to strike a balance.

The key to getting the research we need seems to be to
1) Grow all three Fp farms quickly by working max food and no hammers
2) Switch to scientists getting max beakers and gpp points and no hammers

Sure, we can build a library also but that would be at the expense of either slowing growth for a bunch of turns, or having less turns of working scientists. In either case we end up with less gpp points, and I would bet that we also end up with less beakers after 64 turns. The gain from a library comes later, which in our case is too late if we plan to stop researching after astronomy and construction.

[LowtherCastle]

London axe>worker>settler builds a 2xgold galley on T26 and cattle are pastured on T33.

[LowtherCastle]

Originally Posted by Gnejs

The key to getting the research we need seems to be to
1) Grow all three Fp farms quickly by working max food and no hammers
2) Switch to scientists getting max beakers and gpp points and no hammers

Sure, we can build a library also but that would be at the expense of either slowing growth for a bunch of turns, or having less turns of working scientists. In either case we end up with less gpp points, and I would bet that we also end up with less beakers after 64 turns. The gain from a library comes later, which in our case is too late if we plan to stop researching after astronomy and construction.

Factor in chopping the library in Athens, maybe even in FP City if you have the health. EDIT: Note we're not discussing Payback here, we're discussing Speed. The library hammers are at the expense of other production if we maintain maximum growth.

Plus, if we can net those other clams in Athens...

[Erkon]

Originally Posted by LowtherCastle

This is not necessarily true. The more units we build in advance, the higher our unit cost, thus slowing our research, since Gnejs is using our .

Steenkin' libraries get us to 0% research sooner, thus enabling us to stockpile and units and get our caravels out sooner.

Building another production city might enable us to build units at a faster rate just before Astro so we don't accumulate idle unit costs.

We need to strike a balance.

If we research Maths, Sailing, Calendar, IW and Construction first, and then start building units, we then have about 3000 beakers left to research. That will take 33 turns if we run 15 scientist. Are you saying that in 33 turns, we can

• Build a settler
• Found the city
• Build granary
• Build Barracks
• Build a couple of units
• Move the units to a suitable coast

The upkeep cost on prince is peanuts. 20 units will cost us what? 10 coins? What's the purpose with rushing to Astro if we don't have the units to fill the galleons?

In my world, we don't rely on coins for research after Calendar. Only scientists. The gold is saved for upgrades and to fund unit upkeep and supply.

One Library cost us 180 hammers with OR. That's two War Elephants. That's one captured city. And the gain is 33 * 5 * 6 * 0.25 = 250 beakers, lets say 300 beakers to have a margin. That's three turns of research. Hmm, three turns... Hmm... You may be right... But where do we get the hammers to build the libraries?