Some thoughts on the Quechua Rush

vormuir

Prince
Joined
Mar 14, 2006
Messages
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First, has anyone done an article on the Quechua Rush? Because if so, I'd really like to see it.

Next, some thoughts on Huayna Capac and the Quechua Rush.

HC lends himself to what I call the Two Capital Strategy. It's simple enough... you take someone else's capital away, and then you have two. The key to this strategy is your wonderful UU, the Quechua.


What to do. You locate your neighbors, pick one, and kill him.

Who to kill. Often you won't have a choice... you'll have only one neighbor, or anyone only one who's close enough to be a plausible victim. Still, if you do have a choice, here are some things to consider

  • Does your neighbor have a good capital location? Capitals are usually in good spots, but some are better than others.
  • Is your neighbor a long-term threat? Well, all neighbors are, but some are more than others. Attack Montezuma or Shaka before Roosevelt or Gandhi.
  • Does your neighbor have a religion? Holy cities are harder to capture, but not that much harder, and they're worth much more.
  • Is your neighbor Industrious? An Industrious civ is likely to build an early Wonder, or try to. At a minimum, he'll burn hammers building the Wonder instead of building units or a Wall. If all goes well, he'll finish the Wonder, and then you can take it.
Watch out for:
  • Civs with Stone in the BFC. Yes, this will tempt them to build an early Wonder, but it also means they'll be able to build or whip a fast Wall.
  • Protective Civs. Not only do they get defensive bonuses, but their Walls are cheap. If your only close neighbor is Protective, you may want to give up on the Quechua Rush.
  • Capital cities on hills. Not a deal-breaker, but it's going to cost you.

Who not to kill. Anyone with an early UU that can ruin your day. In particular, Mansa Musa and Sitting Bull should be avoided. Montezuma is a borderline case -- the Jaguar needs no resources, but it takes a while for him to get Iron Working. On the plus side, he often founds a religion. If you're going after Monty, be prepared to chop and whip to build your army faster.

Early teching. HC starts with Meditation and Agriculture, so you have a shot at an early religion. Think carefully, though... do you have a couple of farm resources in the BFC? Or do you have resources that need other techs to develop (mines, animals, etc.)? If the first, go for a religion. If not, maybe you should concentrate on worker techs, and hope to snag a religion later.

Whether you get the religion or not, go for worker techs thereafter. Make Animal Husbandry and Bronze Working early priorities so that you can see where the Horses and Copper are. If you have Horses nearby, hook them up. If not, consider researching Archery -- it's not bad to have a non-Quechua unit or two in your army.

(Note: if you have Copper nearby, DO NOT hook it up yet! Once you have Copper online, you can no longer build Quechuas.)


Early builds
. Good players disagree about what's better -- build a unit or two until your city grows to Size 2, then a Worker, or just build the Worker first. Do whatever seems best for you. But then build a Barracks, and then build Quechua-Quechua-Quechua-Quechua. This will go faster than you might think, because your city will be growing all the while.

Do not even think about building Wonders; this strategy sacrifices them. (What's better, killing an early rival and having two capitals, or Stonehenge?) If you're lucky you might get a wonder that someone else has built, but don't count on it.

Do not build Settlers. You're going to take someone else's cities, not waste hammers building them yourself.

Do chop and whip. One chop or one whip = 2 Quechuas. With chopping and whipping you can build an army very quickly.

Once you have your strike force, you can consider chopping or whipping a Granary... sorry, a Terrace. But build your army first.

When to attack. When you have enough Quechuas (see below).

If you can sharpen your claws and pick up some xps fighting barbarians, do so. Have a Quechua or two out patrolling, so you have a good picture of the neighborhood. Watch for civs getting ready to hook up copper or horses -- Axes and Chariots mean the end of the Quechua Age.

You may be tempted to snag a Worker, since a Quechua can resist counterattack from an Archer. If you do this, do it from a distant civ that's not your primary target. You don't want to alert your target. An AI civ that's at peace will build Workers and Settlers to create new cities... more targets for you... and might even build a Wonder. An AI civ that's at war will build no Wonders and might build a Wall. You don't want the Wall. You want to hit the AI fast and by surprise, thanks.

How many Quechuas? Here's a rough and ready calculation.

Have twice as many Quechuas as there are Archers in the enemy city. For every City Garrison archer, add another Quechua. If the city has 40% culture, add another Quechua. If it has 60% culture, add yet another Quechua. If it's on a hill, add another Quechua. If it has 60% culture and is also on a hill, add yet another Quechua.

So, a barbarian city with 2 archers = 4 Quechuas. An enemy plains capital with 60% culture and three archers, one of whom is CG1 = 9 Quechuas.

If you don't know how many Archers there will be, guess. The AI rarely keeps more than four in a city early in the game, though, even in a capital.

Expect to lose at least half your Quechuas in every assault, and don't forget garrison units. So if you're going to attack the barb city before the enemy capital, you'll need to build 12 Quechuas (lose 2, keep 1 for garrison, leaves 9). Assaults on hills, holy cities, capitals and Protective opponents can be very bloody indeed; it wouldn't be unusual to hit an enemy capital with 10 Quechuas and have just one or two survive. Do not be alarmed by attack percentages in the low single digits... Quechuas are cheap, and if your first attack injures the defender, you're doing fine.

How to attack. Move your stack as close as possible and then declare war. (This is especially true in BtS, where the AI may whip extra defenders in a hurry if threatened.) Strike for the capital first if you can; pick off satellite cities later.

Watch your back -- there's nothing more frustrating than taking Berlin, only to have Cyrus declare war on you two turns later with a couple of Immortals.

What next? If you've done your rush quickly and everything has gone well, there's a chance you might be able to kill a second neighbor the same way. But don't count on it, and don't worry if you can't. You now have two capitals, plus maybe another city or two that the AI settled, plus perhaps a barb city. You also have about twice as much elbow room as any AI.

In the short run, army support + city maintenance costs will crash your economy. That's okay. You're Financial; start spamming cottages. Beeline for Alphabet and then Code of Laws. Your economy will recover.

Militarily, it's time to hook up the Copper or Iron and build a defense force -- the Age of the Quechua will be ending, and you'll need something better to hold on to your new empire.

Thoughts?


Waldo
 
Wow, that's at a much higher level of detail. My post is more like a "Quechua Rush for Dummies" kind of thing.

That's a good point about the Q being better at slower speeds.


Waldo
 
Some nice tips on the Quechau rush. I would probably disagree about gunning for an early religion, unless you are playing on a low level, or have an Oasis handy. I also wouldn't worry too much about connecting horses, or wasting time building any units other than Quechuas. Chariots are weaker against Archers, and they are twice as expensive. You really need to kill the AI before they have anything to counter your Quechuas, and speed is everything. Also, I'm sure that hooked up copper doesn't prevent you from building Quechuas, although mines, food and chopping should be your Worker's early priority imho.

My personal build order would be something like Worker, Quechua, Quechua. Use the Quechua you begin with, and your first build to explore the immediate region. If there is a nearby target, build a barracks, and carry on building nothing but Quechuas. If you have some distance between your neighbour, you might want to begin building Stonehenge instead, utilise HC's builder traits and pursue a peaceful game. You can be somewhat slow to connect those military resources because the Quechua is more than a match for a Barbarian Archer.

I agree with grabbing the relevant worker techs first (situation dependent), then once I have the prerequisites to research Writing, I would probably go Meditation, Priesthood, then start building Oracle whilst simultaneously researching Writing for the COL slingshot. Of course, this may depend on how many Quechuas are produced prior to obtaining Priesthood. But it isn't uncommon for the target to be extinct or on the verge of extinction by then anyway.

I play on Normal speed btw, probably not the best speed for a Quechua rush, but its still effective. :)
 
I played my first game as Huayna and immediately wiped out Suryvarman for his capital. He didn't have a religion, but the location was $$$. Then I took out Orange Bill, who had Buddhism and had the entire continent to myself. My empire was so powerful with the three tiered capital that I was able to get a cultural victory in the mid 1800s. Granted, I was only playing on warlord, but it was almost too easy.:spank:
 
"Early builds. Good players disagree about what's better -- build a unit or two until your city grows to Size 2, then a Worker, or just build the Worker first. Do whatever seems best for you. But then build a Barracks, and then build Quechua-Quechua-Quechua-Quechua."

Like the linked article implies, if I'm not mistaken good players disagree about whether it's better to build a Worker at all and also about whether it's better to build a Barracks at all. Of course, the article was written for an version where some things were different (easier Worker stealing; Agg for Barracks discount; different AI unit-building behavior).

The biggest things that to me seemed to be missing from your article were:
* how does the Quechua rush vary by difficulty? For example, it affects how many cities you have to fight through to reach the capital, with implications I'm not sure about.
* how far away are you willing to go? For me that's a major issue in rushes, one I'm not all that sure about.
* "build a road to your enemy". That's an important tactic for some early rushes.
 
The quechua rush differs greatly between vanilla/warlords and BTS. Also, the rush is not very useful to do against low level AI as they will not have archers in their cities (so no bonus).

I would not bother doing the rush at prince or lower as you won't gain that much. You'd be better off teching BW and finding copper for an axe rush.

On the higher levels, you will want 2 quechuas per archer. The pre-BTS AI will generally have 2 archers per city before any war declaration in the early stages. So that's 4 quechuas (which isn't hard to make). Also, the effective rush will not wait for the AI to found a second city. You want their capital because it will (generally) have a good BFC and you should be able to get a worker in the process (again, at monarch or higher).

If the AI has more than 2 archers in the city (for example, 4 archers and a settler + worker), then you will have to bait the archers out. Basically move your stack 2 or more squares away from the capital. The AI will generally send its settler out then with the 2 archers to protect the settler. You can then swoop in for the kill to capture the enemy capital. If you want, you can kill the settler escort first for a worker as well.

Those are the rules that I follow when I'm doing a quechua rush. Also, I will not try it on normal speed. It takes too long to get to the enemy capital...
 
IMO, its best to just build - quechua, quechua, quechua, quechua, quechua,..RIGHT from the getgo... no barracks, no workers - that would be wasting time.. You capture enemy workers, no need to waste time/resources building them yourself when you can just steal them right :rolleyes: No need for barracks since you can level quechas from fighting barbs/rival civ archers. (this is actually easier on diety/immortal since the AI's will have workers sooner)

Its best to rush AS SOON AS POSSIBLE meaning you capture all the workers you have, and make that early capital grab when the AI has 2-3 archers, no walls, not later on when the AI has a cultural bonus, 4-5 archers, walls, and bronze hooked into their infastruture. Time is of the essence, the earlier the better. If there are no nearby AI's and you plan on a good quecha rush, then regenerate map:)



I tend to just build 5-6 quechas right from the getgo, capture 2-4 workers, nearest capital, and then build a wonder in my capital then next settler.

I also think Epic speed helps for this, i usually play on epic anyways, but normal makes it harder. I haven't had much troubles with protective civs, or protective civs with their capital on a hill, makes it harder - but still very possible.
 
I tend to just build 5-6 quechas right from the getgo, capture 2-4 workers, nearest capital, and then build a wonder in my capital then next settler.

I'm surprised that you manage to capture up to 4 Workers? I thought the AI only started with 2 Emperor-Deity, in BTS anyway.

The reason I build a Worker first is because I play on random maps, and sometimes it happens that there isn't a neighbour near enough to rush. At Normal speed, Immortal level, the AI can connect to horses/copper very quickly, so unless their empire is literally right next to mine, I tend to leave them alone, and develop peacefully. I find the Worker can quickly pay for its hammers through chopping, building mines etc. I tend to attack once I believe I have sufficient forces to eliminate the enemy cities quickly, hence by the time I capture a Worker, the production part of the rush tends to be complete. In my experience, if I try nicking a Worker early, the AI responds by stock piling Archers, and I end up with attrition style warfare. But nicking Workers early seems to work for some players, so perhaps I'm doing something wrong? Or maybe the mechanics of the rush work differently depending on the game speed?
 
Anyone who needs to put the game speed slower than Normal when doing a Que rush, simply is playing out of his league. That's almost cheating.

And as for the Deity, the AI gets 1 worker, 3 settlers, 6 archers, and sometimes scouts ontop of that.

Good lucky trying to wipe that out without a marathon hack.
 
The point of Quetcha rushing and rushes in general is surprising the AI before he has the enough techs/units/defences. So just build Q until you have 4-6 of them, then declare and march straigh for an AI capital.
Its is imperative you dont declare before ready or the AI starts massing defenders.
Other than that of course as the article linked above says settle where you 'd get at least 4 :hammers: from scratch. And send them around scouting, there is no point this early to deploy Q as a SoD. Sneak until you see archers out of a city escorting workers or settlers(The BTS AI proudly sacrifices archers on worker protection duties:lol: ).

At Normal speed, Immortal level, the AI can connect to horses/copper very quickly, so unless their empire is literally right next to mine, I tend to leave them alone, and develop peacefully. I find the Worker can quickly pay for its hammers through chopping, building mines etc. I tend to attack once I believe I have sufficient forces to eliminate the enemy cities quickly, hence by the time I capture a Worker, the production part of the rush tends to be complete. In my experience, if I try nicking a Worker early, the AI responds by stock piling Archers, and I end up with attrition style warfare. But nicking Workers early seems to work for some players, so perhaps I'm doing something wrong? Or maybe the mechanics of the rush work differently depending on the game speed?

All in all, any rush is a gamble, you can never wait until you are 99% sure you'll succed. Meke do with 80-90% and if it fails restart.;)

Immortal is the worst level for a Q rush, worse than even deity as the AI has 2 cities to protect then. A slow game speed ofcourse affects this a lot. At marathon Q rushes are about as cheap as it can get without the WB. Still taking 1-2 AIs before they hook a strategic resource on normal is reasonably easy. Keep in mind that the cities you capture can churn out Q too.;)

Whatever you do dont try to "force" a rush by attacking with 10+ units, its now an act of desperation not a strategy.

@obsolete:
2 settles.4 archers.1 worker, 2scouts. (And its bad enough allready- 3 settlers EEEK)
However the AI will build extra workers ASAP and split his archers around when over 2 are in a city (send some exploring etc), so its easier than it looks.:lol:
 
You can build quechuas after connecting Copper as long as you don't have Hunting. The general rule is that you can no longer build troop X once you're able to build all of the troop types that X can upgrade to. In this case, Hunting unlocks spearmen and thus ends quechua.

This is also useful to know if you expect to go to HR and want to use piles of cheap warriors as garrison happiness. I've been known to curse when I pop Hunting from a hut.

peace,
lilnev
 
If you are too late for a rush, sometimes the Quechuas are great just to harass the AI. Without a military resource, or some UU that doesn't require one, the AI is literally helpless against them until Construction/Feudalism. In one game I was hemmed between Darius and Justinian. I opted to expand peacefully, but a few turns before I could get my first Settler to a gorgeous spot, my fogbuster noticed Darius had one ready to steal it. So I declared, put Darius's Settler to work, and sent some Quechuas out to pillage his improvements, and ensure that he never connects to a military resource. The result was a lengthy war. Darius stockpiled numerous Archers with upgrades in his cities, so I wasn't too concerned with invading. Instead, I just kept him in eternal limbo with a few Quechuas, and settled all the best spots for myself. By the time he reached Construction, my empire dwarfed his, so I vassalised him, and we were best of friends from then on. :D
 
You can build quechuas after connecting Copper as long as you don't have Hunting. The general rule is that you can no longer build troop X once you're able to build all of the troop types that X can upgrade to. In this case, Hunting unlocks spearmen and thus ends quechua.

This is also useful to know if you expect to go to HR and want to use piles of cheap warriors as garrison happiness. I've been known to curse when I pop Hunting from a hut.

peace,
lilnev

Hmm... this doesn't seem to be the case for BTS. I'm just reviewing one of my old saves now to confirm.... I have Hunting, I have Copper connected, I can build Quechuas, AND I can build Spearmen. I "think" the Maceman ends the reign of the Quechua, in BTS anyway.
 
Anyone who needs to put the game speed slower than Normal when doing a Que rush, simply is playing out of his league. That's almost cheating.

:lol: Funny you mention that. HC is the leader you do not speak of in the gauntlets now. He's basically been banned from use. Yes, he distorts the results that much, even on normal speed games.

At normal game speed, HC is better doing a straight up REX. He has awesome traits and a UB that will help you secure the land. Why risk the gamble when you can get similar results safely?
 
I think there's an article on this. Ideally you have a plains hills with a forested plain hill nearby. Capture workers, don't build then (that's 4 quechua's!). Workers build roads to target, maybe improvements if you have time. Do it before some time period, when borders pop to 40% (50 turns, probably), fewer for creative. It's cheap, and there's no way REX is better, the land will be worse, and you can build 8 quechua's, some of which will survive, for a settler.

It's very doable on deity/normal speed, although one game the enemy hooked up chariots pretty fast.
 
:lol: Funny you mention that. HC is the leader you do not speak of in the gauntlets now. He's basically been banned from use. Yes, he distorts the results that much, even on normal speed games.

At normal game speed, HC is better doing a straight up REX. He has awesome traits and a UB that will help you secure the land. Why risk the gamble when you can get similar results safely?

its not a gamble at emperor or below and is always worth it IMO. not only do you get two capitals but you get all of the room he left to expand into. i can pull off a Quechua rush at normal on emperor.
 
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