Balance

[galahadba]

Hi, well i begun with the mod yesterday, after playing with agamenon i found the sieges in this game very very strong...

To get the city to gain defense bonus aside from culture is much more dificult as you have to build first the wooden wall than the real wall... but to get down this bonus you have siege engines that take of 30% per turn, this makes walls almost uselless, i think that at that time the cities that had walls were veeerrryy dificult to take.

Maybe make city walls cost more hammers, and needing a later tech, and getting the sieges to take much less defensive bonus would make it better?

[Shqype]

Delete your current TAM folder, download the latest version of the mod (v0.74) ... this has been addressed. It's not perfect, but it's much better.

[galahadba]

Originally Posted by Shqype

Delete your current TAM folder, download the latest version of the mod (v0.74) ... this has been addressed. It's not perfect, but it's much better.

Well actually i am playing the version 0.74. the probelm is that you get a siege ram with bronze working that take -30% city defense per turn, while palisades + City walls give you +30% (if i am not worng), cultural bonus is almost inexistent... só actually this makes walls uselless, as with only one unit you can get all the city defense and atack in just one turn (or be atacked), there is no more siege on citys.

i think that this should be balanced, a grow up city , with walls should get at least 3 or 4 turns to get its defense to 0%, not one turn with one unit.

[Shqype]

OK, I must have overlooked the Siege Tower.

They will all be reduced even further. The idea of low cultural bonus was that a city should still be "conquerable" without siege engines; in vanilla CIV they're almost a necessity because otherwise you have nearly no chance of breaking through the defenses.

[jefmart1]

You could raise the cultural defenses, and leave siege engies the way they were, BUT; you could give foot units siege capabilities of like -1% to -5%. That way you wouldn't need siege engines. This would represent the damage the could do on their own around the coty , like burning crops for example.

The most realistic thing would really be to have a "passive" lowering of defenses if you have the city surrounded. Like if you had a unit on four sides then it would be "under siege" and lose defenses. Perhaps the blockade feature of ships could be used somehow?

[davbenbak]

Speaking of balance, I had a rough time getting started with the Greeks so I moved their starting location over one space to the right, which makes more room for Sparta, and changed their starting tech of ceremonial burial to fishing. Much more balanced this way.

[ambrox62]

Originally Posted by davbenbak

I had a rough time getting started with the Greeks so I ..... changed their starting tech of ceremonial burial to fishing. Much more balanced this way.

I disagree. Fishing is an expensive tech and only Minoans get it to compensate their tiny starting location.
Leaders of historical major civs (like ancient Greece) get 3 traits advantage instead of 2.

[davbenbak]

There are no Minoans on this map. I'm using the standard 16 civ mediterranean map for BTS. Sorry I should have made that clear in my post.

[graywarden]

Davbenbak,

It sounds like you are using an older map to me. Double enter the new maps

http://tam.arbolingo.com/downloads/

one set in:

C:\Program Files\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Beyond the Sword\PublicMaps

one set in:

C:\Program Files\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Beyond the Sword\Mods\TAM

and if you are really paranoid like me, one set in:

C:\Program Files\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\PublicMaps

Just to make sure....... haha

[ambrox62]

Originally Posted by davbenbak

I'm using the standard 16 civ mediterranean map for BTS

It's ok, Gray. Standard 16 Civs Med Map has Greeks but not Minoans in.
I played this map a lot, and Greeks always were strong contender.
I don't think they need tech help to increase their power.

[Whitefire]

Originally Posted by davbenbak

Speaking of balance, I had a rough time getting started with the Greeks so I moved their starting location over one space to the right, which makes more room for Sparta, and changed their starting tech of ceremonial burial to fishing. Much more balanced this way.

Thei situation is overpowered. You go for Woodworking first, then take out the Illirian's 2 cities, leaving them dead or with a third city. This means you only have to build 2 more settlers, then wonder/GP spam in Athens. I've played this way 3 times on Emperor and it always works.

[Deon]

But if you play as illirians good (as I like), the poor Agamemnon is definitely in the small place with a few resources... Trapped by other cultural borders in the sea :-\. Monarch settings.

[Shqype]

Originally Posted by Deon

But if you play as illirians good (as I like), the poor Agamemnon is definitely in the small place with a few resources... Trapped by other cultural borders in the sea :-\. Monarch settings.

I think it's very cool that you like to play as the Illyrians, although I wouldn't expect that from a Russian,

What it comes down to is, any AI is no match for a good human player, regardless of what faction he chooses.

[Marmoteo]

Illyria's starting position is actually not bad (huge map 24 civs). With the fish and timber you get quite a nice amount of food and production, enough to get a good early army. Actually i've seen an Illyria AI on the top 5 scores in my games, they end up raging war against their neighbors (well, might be cause I play with Aggressive AI setting on) and grabbing up neighboring cities

[davbenbak]

Yes, Illyria does start out pretty strong, not only with resources but their UU. Armoured Spearmen still have a tough time against flaxmen while chariots harrass workers, destroy imrovements and pick off stragglers. Tough going for early Greece. Nots so bad after making the changes I talked about in post #6 as well as early expansion to Crete to get my economy jump started. Being hemmed in by Illyria, Dacia and Lydians does force you to use the City State strategy of having just a few really powerfull cities. Cranking out the wonders is great but not when you don't have the units to defend them though.

[Shqype]

The Greeks are supposed to colonize other areas and win cities over with their culture, as they did historically

[Marmoteo]

I 'sort of tried' that, pumping up my culture and trying to absorb nearby cities, but I couldn't get good cities nearby, so ended up trying to go for an early capture of the Minoan cities, and declaring war against Thrace to get their cities around modern day Istanbul. Lydians are also easy to capture as they usually don't get very far in techs, so got their capital and some cities to the west. I usually don't go for Illyria cause they usually have a huge army so I just bribe them to join me in my wars.

My concern is with the Roman AI, i've never seen it getting thru (compared to other 'major' civs like Egypt, Babylonia, Persia, Phoenicia, Carthage, etc which sometimes do get to be really strong). They usually just found cities north of their peninsula and get behind on techs.

Phoenicia usually chooses to expand east and north instead of going a bit down or colonizing Cyprus, and I always find them to be on the top 3 in score.

[graywarden]

marmoteo,

yes you are right, phonecia as a rule can be dominate, but i have found they are less so now in the huge24map because of Assyria is now a neighbor.

The Romans are not doing as well as they had in the old 18civmap, where they were more apt to be in the top 5 or 10 in score. they often would be dominant militarily if not in score. this would often lead to their early demise because of too many multi-front wars

It will be interesting to see how this changes with the new version, which rumor has it, may be available soon.

[nothin_personal]

Playing Vanilla 2.01. What I really hate is that AI wars are usually inconclusive, they fight and fight and there is no result. I don't know for Illyria since I took them out early both times, but the Dacia vs Scythia war is holding for centuries and they can't conquer a single city of each other. Really stupid

[henryMCVII]

Originally Posted by nothin_personal

Playing Vanilla 2.01. What I really hate is that AI wars are usually inconclusive, they fight and fight and there is no result. I don't know for Illyria since I took them out early both times, but the Dacia vs Scythia war is holding for centuries and they can't conquer a single city of each other. Really stupid

Hm, something like that did not hapen to me. In my Game the Germanic Tribes conquered the Gauls pretty fast, Illyrians where knocked out by Decebal and Agamanon and Hamurabi was send to hell (or heaven) by Assyrians.