A Babylon 5 Mod for the Final Frontier Mod

[reynanuy]

Those are great news PsiCorps! I can only imagine how dificult must be to get the AI to do what we want them to do. I will review the XML file tonight for any typos, I wrote a lot of text so I am sure there must be quite a number of them. For example now looking back, I think I missed at least a couple of Ms in "Commander. Hopefuly I can upload a reviewed versión tonight.

Edit: I had some free time today so I completly revised the XML and corrected tons of typos/errors. It should be spotless now, the only thing is the content itself. You can find the revised file in the attached ZIP.

[PsiCorps]

Many thanks again reynanuy, I'll merge what you've done tonight when i get home from work.

[Premier Valle]

Hello everyone!,

I have completed the last of the Brakiri Fighters, the Pikitos. It is their tier 3 fighter. Only one more vessel for the Brakiri fleet to be complete.

The Pikitos stats:

• Poly count: 396
• Animation: FF Fighter
• Damage/Glow/Gloss: No/No/Yes
• FX extra polys: N / A

Civilopedia:


In-flight:


In other news, I've been doing some play testing on the latest available version, and I have a few observations, playing as EA:

• I never built a Saggitarius, because the Omega became quickly available.
• The Saggitarius is a Missile vessel, it should carry missiles.
• The Omega is available before the Hyperion or the Nova (these last are - B5 wise - older that the Omega).
• The Oracle (ELINT / explorer) is useless, by the time it became available I already had explored a 3rd of the map with a fighter equiped Omega. The Oracle should be available in the first stages of the game.
• The Energy weapons techs, are at the beginning of the tech tree, and railguns are at the middle of the tech tree, I believe that the railgun tech should be one of the very firsts to be researched, after all, an Artemis is a railgun equipped vessel, how comes that you can build Artemises before researching the railguns tech.
• Starbases and the early orbital engineering tech should be available early in the game, after all, in RL the International Space Station is already orbiting Earth, and that space station certainly fits into "early orbital engineering".
• the fighter craft tech should also be available for research sooner in the tech tree, as a matter of fact in the beginning of the tree, how comes that the Starfury Aries can be built without researching the fighters tech.
• It is in IMO that fighters should have a smaller operation radius, this also applies to missiles.
• Also IMO, hyperspace should be available sooner, at most, by the end of the early stages of the tech tree. How comes that jump capable ships can be built before having access to hyperspace itself?.
• The Streib collector is more powerfull than the Omega.
• The Hyperion is more powerfull that the Omega.
• Since the Omega is based on the Nova´s hull, both ships should have similar sizes.
• The Avenger Carrier is available too late in the game, this is an early vessel contemporary of the Saggitarius.

Those are the points I remember at the time of posting, will let you know if I find something else.

I also want to thank reynanuy for its work

[reynanuy]

That's another awesome model Premier, kudos to your 3D modeling skills; not only they look great but you get them done quite fast! Regarding the issues Premier points out, I agree with almost all of them; but I want to point out that most of them come from an unbalanced tech tree and fighter' functionality in general. For example while going through the tech XML file, I noticed many techs that don't do anything and even one that doesn't require/allows anything; that one is Energy Mines. I think that all techs should do something(besides enabling further techs) and that by balancing the tech tree, we can avoid units becoming obsolete so quickly.

Regarding the fighters I think there is a conflict between cannon and playability, I mean in the B5 universe fighters are indeed used to scout far away systems regularly; but this in game means that a few ships with fighters can explore the map in relatively few turns. Thus I think we can lower both their range and visibility, always keeping in mind that they should be able to make hit and run tactics effective against most ships(launch fighters a safe distance away from the enemy).

I was also thinking about weapons and techs, I believe that we should have additional techs for weapon upgrades(missiles, rail guns, energy projection, etc); in order to further lock out advanced ships and also represent cannon facts. After all in B5 a Mimbari beam weapon is for example far more powerful that a similar weapon from the EA or LONAW. I don't know really, this might be just complicating things.

I am gonna take a look at the tech tree using some friendly utility and do some play testing tonight, see if I can come up with some more concrete suggestions to improve the mod.

[PsiCorps]

In other news, I've been doing some play testing on the latest available version, and I have a few observations, playing as EA:

I never built a Saggitarius, because the Omega became quickly available.
The Saggitarius is a Missile vessel, it should carry missiles.
The Omega is available before the Hyperion or the Nova (these last are - B5 wise - older that the Omega).
The Oracle (ELINT / explorer) is useless, by the time it became available I already had explored a 3rd of the map with a fighter equiped Omega. The Oracle should be available in the first stages of the game.
The Energy weapons techs, are at the beginning of the tech tree, and railguns are at the middle of the tech tree, I believe that the railgun tech should be one of the very firsts to be researched, after all, an Artemis is a railgun equipped vessel, how comes that you can build Artemises before researching the railguns tech.
Starbases and the early orbital engineering tech should be available early in the game, after all, in RL the International Space Station is already orbiting Earth, and that space station certainly fits into "early orbital engineering".
the fighter craft tech should also be available for research sooner in the tech tree, as a matter of fact in the beginning of the tree, how comes that the Starfury Aries can be built without researching the fighters tech.
It is in IMO that fighters should have a smaller operation radius, this also applies to missiles.
Also IMO, hyperspace should be available sooner, at most, by the end of the early stages of the tech tree. How comes that jump capable ships can be built before having access to hyperspace itself?.
The Streib collector is more powerfull than the Omega.
The Hyperion is more powerfull that the Omega.
Since the Omega is based on the Nova´s hull, both ships should have similar sizes.
The Avenger Carrier is available too late in the game, this is an early vessel contemporary of the Saggitarius.
Those are the points I remember at the time of posting, will let you know if I find something else.

I'll be addressing all of these points before I make the next version available. All I will say at the moment is that I've made no changes to the order of availablity of the ships by tech since the mod was first started and the highest priority was to get a game that played without crashing, which I think we now have.
The idea behind making the scout available later in the game was to slow down the scouting of the map in the 'Isolation' era. I was looking at a Python Modcomp that would prevent some of the earlier units from leaving their empires borders but it didn't work correctly so I shelved it. I will be looking at the range of Missiles and reducing it as well as reducing slightly the range of fighters, particularly the early ones.

[Premier Valle]

Hi all!,

Just to let you know I have started work on the Dilgar Targath.

Originally Posted by PsiCorps

I'll be addressing all of these points before I make the next version available. All I will say at the moment is that I've made no changes to the order of availablity of the ships by tech since the mod was first started and the highest priority was to get a game that played without crashing, which I think we now have.

I fully agree

Originally Posted by PsiCorps

The idea behind making the scout available later in the game was to slow down the scouting of the map in the 'Isolation' era.

That is a very good point... how about this, the Oracle (or any ELINT vessel for that matter*) should be availble as one of the first ships capable of leaving the home system, that is, it wont be available in the beginning of the tech tree, but perhaps, to make it availble around the same time the first "capital" vessel becomes buildable (i.e. the Artemis), you would build Artemises for the home system defense, but build Oracles to go exploring.

Another concern of mine (directly related to the above one) is the movement upgrades (either through promotion or tech research), as it is right now, a ship can easily cross a whole (mid-sized) system in a single turn (with enough promotions, of course) or move the same distance through normal-space as in hyper-space.

In order to further promote the use of hyperspace (and to honor the huge distances between planets and stars) any ship should be limited to at most 2 movement units (MU) per turn. Restriction on MUs will also restrict early exploration in the 'isolation era'. It will also give fighters/missiles a better usage, taking into account their range is to be reduced, an enemy that takes longer to reach its target will be more exposed to fighter/missile attack runs. This as a side effect will promote the use of escorts (Olympus/Artemises/Interception-Fighters)

(*) I as usual have taken the EA as base, but this observations may/may not apply to other species/races. I.E. there is a Narn vessel (I believe the Dag'kar) that is also a missile ship, so it should also carry missiles, but other race's ship might not have that capability (i.e. I don't remember any Minbari vessel with missiles).

Originally Posted by PsiCorps

I was looking at a Python Modcomp that would prevent some of the earlier units from leaving their empires borders but it didn't work correctly so I shelved it.

In normal CivIV,the boat used to build improvements on sea resources can't get out of the coast/civ borders until astronomy is researched (If memory serves me well), have you tried this approach?
This would also enable the construction ships to build early starbases in the isolation era.

[Ajidica]

I don't remember if it is possible without python work, but isn't it possible to massively jack up the upkeep cost of a unit? That would be realistic. You can only build so many Omegas before your economy can't handle it, so you have to build extra Oracles and other ships to make up the numbers.

[Premier Valle]

Hello everyone!,

I have finished work on the Dilgar Targath Class Carrier (this is a variant of another ship, but this one is enhanced for fighter operations). It will be the early carrier for the Dilgar.

• Poly Count: 1474
• Animation: FF Destroyer
• Damage/Glow/Gloss: Yes/Yes/Yes
• FX extra polys: 82

Civilopedia:


Combat:


Damaged:


It turned a little more higher on the poly count than expected but still within the recommended range (not counting the FX extra polys).
On the combat screenshot it can be appretiated that the energy pulses are actually going outwards, and will never hit the target, this has already been corrected in the nifs. (I misplaced right and left guns for error ).

The next ship is the Brakiri Shakara, the last of the Brakiri Ships.

Originally Posted by Ajidica

I don't remember if it is possible without python work, but isn't it possible to massively jack up the upkeep cost of a unit? That would be realistic. You can only build so many Omegas before your economy can't handle it, so you have to build extra Oracles and other ships to make up the numbers.

While I agree that would be realistic,... it could also be game-breaking, as smaller empires would become easy targets with almost no chance at all.
On a recent game I only had two systems close enough to my homeworld to be candidates for colonization, and was surrounded by other races and empty space, I needed to keep a system producing money for my economy to be in the green (war time production was not feasible). The next system was the Markab homeworld, I lost 2 Novas and two other ships before taking that system, and it wasn´t well defended (a medium to low defense).
To have such a feature could deny the player any chance of appropiate defense and even less for the offensive.

[Ajidica]

Perhaps then the cost could be scaled through a python script (if you can find a python coder)?

A more radical idea, for early ships have two types. One would be a Nova where you can only build three, but no upkeep cost. The other type would be a Nova, but with an upkeep cost.

[PsiCorps]

Originally Posted by Ajidica

Perhaps then the cost could be scaled through a python script (if you can find a python coder)?

A more radical idea, for early ships have two types. One would be a Nova where you can only build three, but no upkeep cost. The other type would be a Nova, but with an upkeep cost.

There may be an idea here.

Is there any way of setting it so you can only have a set number of Capital (Battleships/Command Ships/Carrier Ships) class ships which is based on the number of systems you have colonized?

IE, 2 Capital class ships/system +1 Capital ship, Cruisers, destroyers and Frigates would be unlimited as would fighters. I know you can limit the number of units with xml but this is a fixed amount of units not a variable figure. I'm guessing this would require either python or C++ coding, neither of which I can do.

[Ajidica]

I don't believe there is a way to scale unit limit unless you get involved in python.
The only thing I know that can scale unit limits is map size which is a global variable.

The split between limited/normal upkeep and unlimited/upkeep could be an interesting gameplay mechanic. Take the White Star for example. The first White Star was sort of an uber-ship, nearly able to take down a Shadow vessel. The later White Stars appear, to me at least, to be less durable. This could be reflected in making the limited ships a bit stronger as they would be crewed by the best and the unlimited ships a bit weaker.

[reynanuy]

I've been looking into the Narn ships(started there because they are my favourite race) and came across some inconsistencies with the B5:Ships of the Galaxy 2ND Edition RPG info book, which I used as reference throughout my testing. The result is the following:

Narn ships

- Thentus Frigate should not carry missiles.
- Sho'kar scout should not carry missiles
- The Dag'kar Missile Frigate(destroyer ingame) should have a missile payload and carry no fighters.
- I couldn't find the To'reth Frigate anywhere, maybe it should be renamed; but it definitely should not carry missiles.
- The Th'nor Torpedo Cruiser(destroyer ingame) should have a missile payload and carry no fighters.
- The Var'Nic Long Range Destroyer should carry fighters AND missiles. If we take 3 small crafts for 1 in game, it should carry 2.
- The T'Rakk seems to be the T'Rann which is a specialized carrier. It should carry 8 Fighters then and maybe not be so strong.
- The Rongoth Destroyer should carry no fighters and thus should be stronger.
- The Bin'tak should be stronger and carry 6 fighters instead of 5.
- The G'Quan Heavy Cruiser should carry only 2 fighters
- Couldn't find neither the Ko'Dath Heavy Carrier nor the G'Kar Cruiser at all. Can't know their capabilities.
- The G'Karith should only carry 2 fighters.
- Ships' strength needs to be balanced, as some ships are described as vastly more powerful in canon material; but are not so in the mod. Ex: Bin'tak vs T'Rann for example.

You guys might have some better sources for this, but according to the one I am using; these things don't add up. In any case I will follow this with the Centauri as soon as I have some free time. Regarding upkeep costs an exponential increase in ship maintenance would indeed be great but we can also just decrease the maintenance through civics and thus control how many ships are there for any given empire.

[Premier Valle]

Hi all,

This is the latest version of the ship table:

BLACK : Finished
RED: To be done
GREEN: In progress

It can be usefull while evaluating changes and tuning the game. We have so far used many sources for information on ship capabilities but have also taken a few liberties to take them into the game, mostly due to the lack of a ship that could fit a given role (you can think of them as variants).

Some names may vary from the table to the game, but if the NIFs should have the same names as in the table.

On a side update: 85% advance in the Brakiri Shakara

[PsiCorps]

Originally Posted by reynanuy

I've been looking into the Narn ships(started there because they are my favourite race) and came across some inconsistencies with the B5:Ships of the Galaxy 2ND Edition RPG info book, which I used as reference throughout my testing. The result is the following:

Narn ships

- Thentus Frigate should not carry missiles.
- Sho'kar scout should not carry missiles
- The Dag'kar Missile Frigate(destroyer ingame) should have a missile payload and carry no fighters.
- I couldn't find the To'reth Frigate anywhere, maybe it should be renamed; but it definitely should not carry missiles.
- The Th'nor Torpedo Cruiser(destroyer ingame) should have a missile payload and carry no fighters.
- The Var'Nic Long Range Destroyer should carry fighters AND missiles. If we take 3 small crafts for 1 in game, it should carry 2.
- The T'Rakk seems to be the T'Rann which is a specialized carrier. It should carry 8 Fighters then and maybe not be so strong.
- The Rongoth Destroyer should carry no fighters and thus should be stronger.
- The Bin'tak should be stronger and carry 6 fighters instead of 5.
- The G'Quan Heavy Cruiser should carry only 2 fighters
- Couldn't find neither the Ko'Dath Heavy Carrier nor the G'Kar Cruiser at all. Can't know their capabilities.
- The G'Karith should only carry 2 fighters.
- Ships' strength needs to be balanced, as some ships are described as vastly more powerful in canon material; but are not so in the mod. Ex: Bin'tak vs T'Rann for example.

You guys might have some better sources for this, but according to the one I am using; these things don't add up. In any case I will follow this with the Centauri as soon as I have some free time. Regarding upkeep costs an exponential increase in ship maintenance would indeed be great but we can also just decrease the maintenance through civics and thus control how many ships are there for any given empire.

This is the sort of information we have been looking for. The reason the Frigates are missile carriers is to keep them the same as all the other races frigates. The only thing that i did differently to standard Civ mods is the following. Minbari ships are the Strongest units around but I offset this with higher production costs and maintenance. Next in strength came the Narn, Centauri and Dilgar (all the same) then the EA and lastly the League worlds.
The G'Kar and Ko'Dath are a nod to the TV series that inspired the mod as are a few other units. Don't forget the names refer to the class of the unit not an individual unit name, thus a Ko'Dath class Cruiser or an Olympus class Frigate.
With the information you have provided I can, at last start to make each of the Civ's more individual.
Oh, while I remember, we used a figure of 6 fighters to a Squadron so a unit able to carry fighters has one cargo space for every 6 fighters. The EA units have lots of fighters so this was quite easy to do with the other Civ's I gave them the same carrying capacity simply to keep it balanced (for the time being anyway)The problem with cargo space is that it is also required for carrying the Jump Engine (unit) and you can't mix cargo types, at least not that I've found so far. So carrying fighters and missiles is a bit of a pain but there may be a way around that, don't know what it is yet though

[Ajidica]

PV, have you made a Babylon 5 model yet?

[Premier Valle]

Hi everyone!

Originally Posted by PsiCorps

This is the sort of information we have been looking for. The reason the Frigates are missile carriers is to keep them the same as all the other races frigates.

Perhaps we should first define a base line and set every unit to it (for example, all tier 1 battleships have a strenght of 30, all tier 2 battleships have a strength of 50, you get the idea), then we could start with tuning each units.

Originally Posted by PsiCorps

The only thing that i did differently to standard Civ mods is the following. Minbari ships are the Strongest units around but I offset this with higher production costs and maintenance. Next in strength came the Narn, Centauri and Dilgar (all the same) then the EA and lastly the League worlds.

While I agree that the Minbari should be the strongest (B5 wise), I would say that the centauri should be the next (they are after all the 2nd oldest young race), then the Narn/EA/Dilgar should occupy the same level of strenght and then the Drazi/Brakiri and then the rest of the LoNAW.

That is B5-wise, the Minbari are the strongest because in the series they are the most advanced and old of the young races, however, in the game they all start at the same time with a similar tech level, and since Civ is a "what if" game, ... should we make the units for the different races "similar" in capabilities but with certain customizations?

Originally Posted by PsiCorps

The problem with cargo space is that it is also required for carrying the Jump Engine (unit) and you can't mix cargo types, at least not that I've found so far. So carrying fighters and missiles is a bit of a pain but there may be a way around that, don't know what it is yet though

I haven't figured any other way to approach this,... perhaps someone with a little SDK knowledge?

I remember there are "special units", I don't know if we could make the units to carry these special units, and the fighters/jump-engine could be special units (just some thoughts).

Originally Posted by Ajidica

PV, have you made a Babylon 5 model yet?

As a matter of fact, yes, I have already modelled it (since last year), however, there hasn't been an agreement or otherwise proper discussion on how to implement B5 yet. There are two main lines so far:

1. As a "world wonder".
2. As a "starbase"

I'm more inclined to the first.
Render:

Spoiler:

Orbiting star system:

Spoiler:

How do you think B5 should be added to the mod?

[Ajidica]

Perhaps it could be both? First you would have to complete the 'Babylon Project' wonder (The 'Babylon Project' wonder gives you all of the trade benefits you would associate with B5. Perhaps it can also make the building of the ISA (that replaces the UN, right?) cheaper.). Then a python script gives you a 'Babylon Constructor' or whatever. This can only be used to make the 'Babylon 5 Station' improvement. Upon completion the Constructor dissapears and the 'Babylon 5 Unit' appears with a strength roughly comprable to that of a Nova but immobile.
This follows the same pattern as a conventional starbase so the AI could possibly understand it.

The Python coding wouldn't be that advanced, just a spawn unit upon build command and a hacking of the conventional starbase code. I'm sure an experianced python coder could create it in under an hour.

[Premier Valle]

Hello everyone!,

Finally, the Brakiri fleet is complete, the Shakara Class ELINT vessel is ready!.

• Poly count: 784
• Animation: B5_CustomFF_CarrierCruiser
• Damage/Glow/Gloss: Yes/Yes/Yes
• FX extra polys: 26

Civilopedia:


Combat:


Damaged:


Of course, the scale of this ship is wrong in the combat image, but that size is XML based.

Now that the Brakiri are complete... which one should be next?, I remember a request for the Drazi Sunhawk, since many other worlds use Drazi ships it would be a good choice... on the other hand I became bored of making brakiri ships , so maybe I'll make a LoNAW ship every once in a while.

Originally Posted by Ajidica

Perhaps it could be both? First you would have to complete the 'Babylon Project' wonder (The 'Babylon Project' wonder gives you all of the trade benefits you would associate with B5. Perhaps it can also make the building of the ISA (that replaces the UN, right?) cheaper.). Then a python script gives you a 'Babylon Constructor' or whatever. This can only be used to make the 'Babylon 5 Station' improvement. Upon completion the Constructor dissapears and the 'Babylon 5 Unit' appears with a strength roughly comprable to that of a Nova but immobile.
This follows the same pattern as a conventional starbase so the AI could possibly understand it.

The Python coding wouldn't be that advanced, just a spawn unit upon build command and a hacking of the conventional starbase code. I'm sure an experianced python coder could create it in under an hour.

Now that is some great idea , you could even place it in... "neutral territory" .

And coming to think about... perhaps it could even be XML doable:

1. The B5 would be just like another starbase (with different nif of course), think of it as a Tier 4 starbase.
2. Any construction ship can build the B5, however, the B5 starbase would have the "Babylon Project World Wonder" as a requisite, and since the B5 project is unique, only that one who owns the B5 project could have it.
3. The B5 project would also enable the UN (united nations/planets)
4. The B5 project gives access to the An'la'shok hardware (White Star, Victory).

Should the ISA Headquarters replace B5 as the UN?? or simply provide access to the An'la'shok hardware???

[Ajidica]

If you do any messing about with starbases, you have to do some python editing (unless this was changed with Final Frontier Plus) to ensure they got their cultural area.
Also, I don't believe improvements can have wonders as a prerequisite. The tags for improvements are rather limited.

Should the ISA Headquarters replace B5 as the UN?? or simply provide access to the An'la'shok hardware???

I feel the ISA headquarters should just provide military stuff and keep B5 diplomatic. I've always preferred for building/wonder to provide only one 'theme' of bonus'.

[reynanuy]

Sorry for the hiatus guys, RL and a nasty cold kept me from being productive here. Well in any case, here is my take on the Centauri ships as per the book I have, as promised:

Centauri Ships
- The Centauri scout is named Corvan not Covran, it should carry a fighter wing instead of missiles.
- The Dargan Strike Cruiser(frigate in game) carries no missiles, it seems to carry heavy weapons only.
- The Kutai gunship(frigate in game) should carry no missiles and be vulnerable to fighters.
- The Centurion Attack Cruiser should not carry fighters.
- The Sulust Escort Destroyer should not carry fighters and should be very good at taking them down.
- The Vorchan carries no fighters, should be less powerful than the Sulust and be available sooner. Unless we use the Vorchat War Raider variant with is more powerful and should carry a fighter wing.
- I couldn't find any info on the Centauri Cruiser Aquila
- The Octurian Battleship should be named Octurion instead, carry 4 instead of 5 fighter wings and be much more powerful.
- I couldn't find any info on the Centauri Adira Capital Ship
- The Primus Valerius is a specific ship not a class. I propose we change this one to the Tertius, which is the latest variant of the Primus. It should not carry fighters.
- The Maximus is a frigate not a capital ship and carries no fighters.
- The Darkner Fast Attack Frigate is a frigate not a capital ship and carries no fighters. I propose we change it to the Amar Fast Carrier which carries 2 wings.
- Is the Balvarin Carrier not Balvarian. It should carry 6 wings instead of 9.

In general:
- I believe Frigates and Destroyers should start 2 movements in game to represent their speed.
- I think in general this should be the idea behind good-vs and bad-vs for the ship classes:

Frigates
+battleships -cruisers

Destroyers
+fighters/bombers -battleships

Cruisers
+destroyers -fighters/bombers

Battleships
+cruisers -fighters/bombers

Carriers(weak in general)
-cruisers +fighters/bombers

- Regarding race balance, since this mod is a big what if of the b5 universe; I think the ships need to be more or less equivalent across the races. But they should still have something unique for each faction.

Since PV pretty much already took care of going through the EA ships, I will cover the Mimbari next. Probably next weekend. I hope you guys find all this useful.