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Old Feb 15, 2008, 02:44 PM   #1
Mossada
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Late game SE or economic transition?

To become a more versatile player I recently started using SE almost exclusively for my early-mid games. The trouble I'm having is keeping SE viable past Liberalism and especially past Democracy. In a recent game on Emperor I had a very strong early game where I got Pyramids early and kept a tech lead on the AI until Liberalism (definetely stronger than I would have with CE). Then I started falling behind. Beelining to Biology helped in the short-term but the AI still ran away from me technologically. Had I been running a full-blown CE with the amount of land I had at that point I woulda crushed the AI in research.

So, is SE a viable research alternative to CE in the late game? Or can it only serve a support role for essentially a warmonger/domination victory (e.g Nationhood, State Property)? If you do transition from SE to CE then how and when do you usually start? How do you generate cash other than Merchants (excluding shrines)? In my view, the strongest feature of CE late game is its incredible versatility. What would you say is the strongest suit for late game SE?
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Old Feb 15, 2008, 03:01 PM   #2
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A cottage is worth 1-4 people in a SE, with 2-3 being the most typical. Ill let you figure it out from there.
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Old Feb 15, 2008, 03:26 PM   #3
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Diversify/Hybrid is generally the way I go, although I emphasize food and specialists early game I still build and work cottages. Basically, instead of specializing my economy one way or the other each city ends up taking on a persona. While not all your cities are going to benefit from your civic choices most will.

Food gives you choices. Whereas a CE trades food solely for raw commerce an SE generate surplus food that you can use for production or for specific commerce output that you have built the multiplier buildings for. That said, a few cities targeted for 20 pop running the minimum number of farms and cottage spammed can give you solid base-line and then your farm cities can emphasize production or commerce depending on game circumstances.

Raw beaker output is important but so it effective beaker output when you consider tech-trading and, via production, techs from opponents that want you to stop killing them.

It is probably best to transition your core cities during the liberalism race. Either you will be expanding territory and will want high-food in the newly acquired cities for growth (and cottages on the front are ripe for pillaging) OR you won't be expanding so you will HAVE to use your core cities.
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Old Feb 15, 2008, 03:37 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Ibian View Post
A cottage is worth 1-4 people in a SE, with 2-3 being the most typical. Ill let you figure it out from there.
A town maybe ,a cottage... no way. And there are always the costs of the transitions ( cottages have to mature and they are a loss for a SE... )

A SE can hold to space ( I done it in my version of Pericles LHC ) but it will have a rough time if doesn't control the UN.....
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Old Feb 15, 2008, 03:48 PM   #5
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Cottage is hamlet is village is town. No need to be argumentative when you know what i mean.
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Old Feb 15, 2008, 03:58 PM   #6
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I almost always stick a couple cottages on my "unfarmable til Bureaucracy" grassland tiles in each city while playing an SE. I seem to run into money problems quite a bit, and occasionally need to work those tiles to keep myself in the black (even at 0% slider) until I get a specific tech/wonder/building finished.
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Old Feb 15, 2008, 03:58 PM   #7
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Just cottage up some of your ex-jungle cities.

Riverside cottages (2c) are almost as good as riverside farms (1c + half a specialist), and they only get better from there.
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Old Feb 15, 2008, 05:15 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Ibian View Post
Cottage is hamlet is village is town. No need to be argumentative when you know what i mean.
Clearly I didn't.... cottage + time = hamlet; Hamlet + time village ; village + time = town......

and

Town + pillage = village ; village + pillage = hamlet ; hamlet + pillage = cottage ; Cottage + pillage = unimproved tile

The situation is this: a cottage is a bad improvement per se ( even Dave agreed with that once ), easily beatable in the begining of the game by a farm+ mine + specialist combination... and in a lot of times the thrust of a strong start in SE cam be enough to hold the advantage until the end of the game, even if the game ends by space.....

And of course that even if you want to pass from a SE to a CE you'll have to play your cards right or your Economy will stall for a while until you get juicy villages and towns
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Old Feb 15, 2008, 05:30 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by r_rolo1 View Post
Clearly I didn't.... cottage + time = hamlet; Hamlet + time village ; village + time = town......

and

Town + pillage = village ; village + pillage = hamlet ; hamlet + pillage = cottage ; Cottage + pillage = unimproved tile

The situation is this: a cottage is a bad improvement per se ( even Dave agreed with that once ), easily beatable in the begining of the game by a farm+ mine + specialist combination... and in a lot of times the thrust of a strong start in SE cam be enough to hold the advantage until the end of the game, even if the game ends by space.....

And of course that even if you want to pass from a SE to a CE you'll have to play your cards right or your Economy will stall for a while until you get juicy villages and towns
A switch need hardly stall your economy. A cottage takes 15 turns in emancipation to become a village which is a +4 commerce tile by then. Two citizens working those beat the farm + scientist combo which produces 6 science.

Even when I run a SE I still build cottages in some cities that don't have a big food surplus - they provide cash to support the other cities. As the economy grows and cottages grow more powerful and the GPP returns focus on a smaller number of cities then switching gradually to have a higher percentage of cottages won't result in any dip at all - more likely just a steady acceleration curve as the cottages power up.
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Old Feb 15, 2008, 05:45 PM   #10
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I was struggling with this but I'm finding SE also helps my earlygame alot...even if I'm just running stuff building allows for some early bulbing.

Interestingly enough you can build food to run your specialists early, and leave the other tiles alone until your city grows. You can certainly cottage those tiles later, or just put down cottages whenever you have worker actions and want to transition out of SE.

Depending on how you're teching etc. the amount of tiles you'll physically have to change from one improvement to another is lessened this way...smoothing the transition a bit. Even though i'm rough around the edges with it, i'm already teching faster (especially when it matters) by running a hybrid. Stupid micro .
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Old Feb 15, 2008, 06:22 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by InvisibleStalke View Post
A switch need hardly stall your economy. A cottage takes 15 turns in emancipation to become a village which is a +4 commerce tile by then. Two citizens working those beat the farm + scientist combo which produces 6 science.

Even when I run a SE I still build cottages in some cities that don't have a big food surplus - they provide cash to support the other cities. As the economy grows and cottages grow more powerful and the GPP returns focus on a smaller number of cities then switching gradually to have a higher percentage of cottages won't result in any dip at all - more likely just a steady acceleration curve as the cottages power up.
That is what I meant by "playing cards right"..... a mindless cottage switch can be pretty devastating ( passed by there in my Noble games..... )
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Old Feb 15, 2008, 07:40 PM   #12
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The situation is this: a cottage is a bad improvement per se
Huh? No it isnt.

It takes 3 people to run one specialist in the early game: 2 farms and the specialist itself. That means that whatever the specialist produces needs to be split in 3 if we wanna compare to cottages.

Without the mids a scientist is making 3 beakers. Thats 1 beaker for each person. A non-financial non-riverside cottage matches this.

With the mids they produce 2 beakers each. A hamlet or riverside cottage matches this.

With improved farms and mids you get 3 beakers each. A financial riverside cottage matches this, everyone else needs a hamlet or village. Not a problem this late in the game.

Any economy can (and probably will) run a GP farm so GPP is largely out the window for purposes of comparison.

Cottages win.
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Old Feb 15, 2008, 07:47 PM   #13
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Capture enemy territory. There will be plenty of mature towns to run there while your homeland remains a specialist powerhouse. Growing all of those cottages to towns that late in the game doesn't seem worth it to me, but if your land area is very small, a transition is probably best. As far as I can tell, a specialist economy has to have A LOT of land to work in the late game.
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Old Feb 15, 2008, 09:09 PM   #14
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It takes 3 people to run one specialist in the early game: 2 farms and the specialist itself. That means that whatever the specialist produces needs to be split in 3 if we wanna compare to cottages.
You're forgetting two critical factors. First of all, a lot of your early cities are going to have food resources, making it easier to assign specialists and probably desireable to do so, since the city would quickly exceed its happiness cap without diverting the excess food somewhere.

Secondly, by working farms a city can support a larger population working the same number of tiles, so considering a single specialist to be equal to three worked cottages is still flawed because it only takes two farms to provide the surplus food to assign a specialist. Personally, I think that comparing a scientist/merchant to so-and-so number of cottages is a gross oversimplification, but if you wanted to, you'd have to assume that 1 specialist = 2 cottages.

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With the mids they produce 2 beakers each. A hamlet or riverside cottage matches this.
Riverside farms get commerce bonuses too. Again, since one specialist is more closely equated to two cottages, a representation scientist is like 3 beaker/farm, making them villages that produce great person points. Every game I've ever had them, the Pyramids allowed a SE that dwarfed CE in the early game.

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With improved farms and mids you get 3 beakers each. A financial riverside cottage matches this, everyone else needs a hamlet or village. Not a problem this late in the game.
Actually, it's closer to one Biology farm becomes 6 beakers. Revisiting the point I brought up earlier, the fact that it takes 2 people is meaningless since the farm speeds up growth and provides the extra food, which would otherwise not be available, to assign the specialist.

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Any economy can (and probably will) run a GP farm so GPP is largely out the window for purposes of comparison.
Valid point, but the SE will still get more great people in the early game, where they'll make the most difference.

Last edited by DigitalBoy; Feb 15, 2008 at 09:14 PM.
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Old Feb 15, 2008, 09:12 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Ibian View Post
Huh? No it isnt.

It takes 3 people to run one specialist in the early game: 2 farms and the specialist itself. That means that whatever the specialist produces needs to be split in 3 if we wanna compare to cottages.

Without the mids a scientist is making 3 beakers. Thats 1 beaker for each person. A non-financial non-riverside cottage matches this.

With the mids they produce 2 beakers each. A hamlet or riverside cottage matches this.

With improved farms and mids you get 3 beakers each. A financial riverside cottage matches this, everyone else needs a hamlet or village. Not a problem this late in the game.

Any economy can (and probably will) run a GP farm so GPP is largely out the window for purposes of comparison.

Cottages win.
GPP isn't out the window for comparison. Mind you, I favor CE even now, but the difference between CE and SE also includes WHEN you get those great people. Early GP en masse' may provide an advantage opponents never recover from...

I still like putting cottages down after a while though, usually earlier than later. High food cities can transition pretty quickly (usually after a hike in pop cap, and these happen throughout the game, notably monarchy, calander, religions, etc), and production cities shouldn't be worrying about it either way...they're on hammers. It doesn't have to be an instant bandaid ripping off transition, does it? Maybe I'm just playing wrong and getting away with it because i'm only on Prince.
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Old Feb 15, 2008, 09:17 PM   #16
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So, is SE a viable research alternative to CE in the late game? Or can it only serve a support role for essentially a warmonger/domination victory (e.g Nationhood, State Property)?
I tried a space race victory with Peter of Russia running a SE.

My experience was that, between unhappiness from emancipation that required culture slider investment and +1+7 towns, SE seems to fizzle out starting somewhere in the industrial era (earlier if your rivals tech democracy ahead of you). Biology will give you a nice boost for a while, but SE still seems to fade as the late game progresses.

I imagine a transition of sorts would be the best bet, but since I try for military victories, I prefer to just try and win the game before it becomes a problem.
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Old Feb 15, 2008, 09:21 PM   #17
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First of all, a lot of your early cities are going to have food resources,
Irrelevant for comparison. Extra food is also extra food for a CE or HE or anything else.

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Secondly, by working farms a city can support a larger population working the same number of tiles, so considering a single specialist to be equal to three worked cottages is still flawed because it only takes two farms to provide the surplus food to assign a specialist. Personally, I think that comparing a scientist/merchant to so-and-so number of cottages is a gross oversimplification, but if you wanted to, you'd have to assume that 1 specialist = 2 cottages.
You are going to have to explain your funky math.

2 farms to run a specialist. And then the specialist who eats the extra food. Thats 3 people required to run a specialist.

Thats also one of the big limitations to a full SE. You need more health and happiness than a CE would. Happiness can be fixed, health cant.

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Riverside farms get commerce bonuses too.
Okay, point. In that case its:

Scientist without mids is matched by a cottage.

Scientist with mids is matched by a hamlet.

Scientist with mids and improved farm is matched by village or financial hamlet.

Quote:
Valid point, but the SE will still get more great people in the early game, where they'll make the most difference.
There are probably some valid early gambits i havent thought of, yes, but im more interested in how it compares on the long term.

Last edited by Ibian; Feb 15, 2008 at 09:36 PM.
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Old Feb 15, 2008, 09:34 PM   #18
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Irrelevant for comparison. Extra food is also extra food for a CE or HE or anything else.
Yeah, but cottages also produce food at the expense of some raw commerce output (until they get to villages, which takes a little while). Specialists provide solid research but no food. When you have a lot of food and a low happy cap, solid research with no food output can be a good thing, or at least better than it would be otherwise.


Quote:
You are going to have to explain your funky math.

2 farms to run a specialist. And then the specialist who eats the extra food. Thats 3 people required to run a specialist.
That's three people but only two worked tiles. Cottages provide no food. Farms speed up growth and provide surplus food, allowing larger cities with the same number of worked tiles. To put it more simply, I'm comparing farms with cottages. 2 farms feed 1 specialist. Ergo, 1 specialist = 2 cottages (1 with Biology).

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Thats also one of the big limitations to a full SE. You need more health and happiness than a CE would. Happiness can be fixed, health cant.
Definitely agree here. Culture slider helps with happiness a lot, so much that it's practically a non-issue right up until emancipation, but health is a problem that I run into a lot. That being said, I don't feel it invalidates SE; you can always switch some farms over to specialists to halt growth. It assuages unhealthiness and gives you the extra specialists you would have gotten anyway if the city continued to grow.
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Old Feb 15, 2008, 09:46 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Ibian View Post
Huh? No it isnt.

It takes 3 people to run one specialist in the early game: 2 farms and the specialist itself. That means that whatever the specialist produces needs to be split in 3 if we wanna compare to cottages.

Without the mids a scientist is making 3 beakers. Thats 1 beaker for each person. A non-financial non-riverside cottage matches this.

With the mids they produce 2 beakers each. A hamlet or riverside cottage matches this.

With improved farms and mids you get 3 beakers each. A financial riverside cottage matches this, everyone else needs a hamlet or village. Not a problem this late in the game.

Any economy can (and probably will) run a GP farm so GPP is largely out the window for purposes of comparison.

Cottages win.


SE vs CE .. Science slider? Whip? Versatile? Just some things to consider, figure out the answer yourself.

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but im more interested in how it compares on the long term.
Long term? Civ is just a pile of snowball effects, early advantages can result in long term advantages. I wouldn't even bring this subject up because it is too complicated to fully grasp.

ps: I'm not saying se>ce .. just saying it's different and both have their (dis)advantages.
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Old Feb 15, 2008, 09:54 PM   #20
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Yeah, but cottages also produce food at the expense of some raw commerce output (until they get to villages, which takes a little while). Specialists provide solid research but no food. When you have a lot of food and a low happy cap, solid research with no food output can be a good thing, or at least better than it would be otherwise.
Its the other way around. A low happy cap favors cottages.

Lets say we got a happy cap of 7, no food resources, grassland. The 7th person is a scientist in both cases so we are looking at 6 slots that need to be filled with a total food surplus of 0.

You can either run 4 farms and 2 specialists for a total of 12 beakers, or you can run 6 cottages.

Non-financial leaders have to wait for hamlets before they break even, followed by villages which produce 50% more than scientists would.

Financial riverside cottages match the scientists right out of the gate.

You might argue that 10 turns is too long to wait. Thats an opinion i dont share, but everyone plays different i guess.

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That's three people but only two worked tiles.
Happy cap, health cap, its all about the caps caps caps.

Last edited by Ibian; Feb 15, 2008 at 10:18 PM.
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