Minor Civs

[blaise bailey]

Before I start I would like to say that the current expansion mechanics in FfH2 (which are just like Vanilla Civ4) would prevent the idea of minor civs from being plausable as it is just too easy for the AI and Player to quickly expand anywhere at any time, which is why I refer you to this post:

Using culture to increase barbarian activity
before you continue reading this post

Minor Civs
Now onto my point, has anyone here played "Birth of the Federation"? Its quite an old game (1999), its sorta like civ in space and was worked on by some of the people that worked on Civ2

Anyway, one of its greatest features was Minor Civs. These civs could be found scattered throughout the galaxy.. they would not expand but would have a handful of unique units that only they could build and also a unique building and unique wonder type structure

This could be implemented into FfH2 (with more detailed expansion mechanics) so that minor civs where on the map, having say one built up city and each one having different things to offer. I think this would add alot more depth and flavour to the current FfH2 game. The major civs goal would be either to conquer these minor civs (which would not be too easy as they would start off with sizable armies... but would not expand themselves in most curcumstances) or to become friends and eventually for them to become a vassal of yours

However that would depend on the minor civ itself as some would be evil and maybe only become friendly with the Sheim and others maybe extrememly good and be waiting for the Basium to appear and become friends with them... or some may want to be friends with no one.... but thats completley up to who ever crafts these minor civs for FfH2
Maybe some would start on certain terrain only, like an ice civ using some of the units from Age of Ice (which in turn you maybe able to build just from that one city if you conquer them)
The possibilties are endless

Armageddon events using "heaven" and "hell" civs or equivilent
Furthermore and slightly different.... it would be nice to see more Armageddon counter events.. for both increases and decreases in the counter
Currently some hell units are spawned (and are barbarian)
but it would be nice to see heaven units spawned too for decreases or to try and stop the demons getting out of control (what ever story you wish to attach) but I think these should belong to seperate "hell" and "heaven" civs when they do spawn (seperate from basium and infernal but obviously heaven units allied to basium and vice versa) this would be nice just to have more of an impression of this struggle between good and evil that is going on all around you (something that isnt completlely satisfied with the current basium and infernal civ spawning) of course these heaven and hell civs would not have cities like the ones mentioned above... they would sorta be like 2 additional barb civs only with relevent allegiances and units.

So thoughts anyone... btw please read the thread I linked to above regarding Expansion mechanics, before posting a reply as... it will all make more sense

[MagisterCultuum]

I kinda assumed that by "minor civs" you meant the type of minor civs that were made possible in Warlords, and which are found in Rhye's and Fall of Civilization. These are basically the extra barbarian traits, but are not automatically at war with the major civs and which are at war with the barbarians and can declare war on eachother. However, you cannot contact them or conduct diplomacy, although oddly you could request that other civs declare war on or make peace with them. You cannot ack them to become your vassals.


I was planning to split up the barbarian state into minor civs (Barbarian Horde-Orks and Acheron, Creatures of Nature-Animals and Beasts, Legion of Darkness-Demons and Undead) eventually (I have no idea how they work yet). Still, I wouldn't mind seeing a few other minor civs being added as well. In general I think that they should all come from Kaels D&D campaign, as I'm pretty sure it contained several civilization that he did not include in the main game (mostly because they didn't fit the theme of the 21 spell spheres/gods, or they just weren't interesting enough or had too few details known about them to warrant implementing)

I would also like some ways to have limited diplomacy with the barbs/minor civs, maybe only for barb trait leaders or maybe only through random events.


I definitely don't like the "heaven" minor civ (well, I might be convinced to support it if it only contains a few heroes created by rare random events, which may or may not happen and/or it was only a game option. It would also need a better name), but I would like a seperate hell one for Armageddon heroes et alii (I prefer to call it the Legion of Darkness)

I would like more minor civs, combined with the hinterland mechanic and the ability to settle in owned territory (which would be an act of war)


I'd also like these civs to have some powerful traits that are lost when their heroes die.

[Mesix]

It's funny you should mention Birth of the Federation. That is one of my favorite classic strategy games (right after Railroad Tychoon II), and I just took it out of storage to install on my new laptop (hopefully Vista will let it play).

I have been playing Civ IV mods for awhile now, and have just started to try a few of my own things. Once I learn more, I was thinking of adapting Birth of the Federation to a Final Frontier style mod. The minor civs was the part that I thought might be the toughest to get right.

Minor civs might work well in FfH. I have always liked the mechanic where you get to build a special building/wonder for each minor civ that you conquer. If minor civs would be too tough, perhaps adding this mechanic to defeated civs in FfH would be a nice addition. Obviously, getting multiple palaces would be very overpowering, but the ability to get some beneficial minor wonder that you can build when you defeat a civ would bee cool. The special wonder should only be buildable in the captial of the conquered civ, just like the special buildings in Birth of the Federation could only be built in the home system of each minor race.

Some ideas:

Khazad A dwarven vault (for only one city) that provides earth mana.
Svaltafar A dark grove that gives units hidden nationality and provides shadow mana.
Grigori An Adventurer guild that gives +4 GP production for adventurers

[xienwolf]

Well, a minor civ shouldn't be too hard to code if I am seeing things properly.

You can set the starting units for a civ, so just them out with a sizeable army. Make them unable to build settlers (ok, this one might be hard since the easiest way to do it would be replacing settlers with a blank unit, but that would mean no initial settler either), and force them to raze cities instead of allowing them to capture any.

For a unique reward if you conquer them, just create a unit that requires a special building to create, and that building is one which their city starts with (like Demonic Citizens). Then set the building to remain on conquest, thus allowing the player who takes over their city to build that unit now.

Benefit of making them your vassal/ally is a bit more difficult, but if you do them as a Barb style civ you cannot vassalize them anyway.

[Mewtarthio]

Originally Posted by xienwolf

Make them unable to build settlers (ok, this one might be hard since the easiest way to do it would be replacing settlers with a blank unit, but that would mean no initial settler either), and force them to raze cities instead of allowing them to capture any.

Unable to build Settlers should be simple enough: Just make all Settlers require the "Major Civilization" tech, which only the twenty-one playable civs start out with and cannot be researched or traded (much like "Seafaring" for the Lanun).

As a side benefit, you could also make "Major Civlization" an AND prereq for religion-founding techs if you don't want a minor civilization to have any chance of getting a religion.

[xienwolf]

Nice work-around Mew Can make a lot of small blocks to the Minor-Civ development with that kind of tech. And make a Minor Civilization tech in case there are tricks you want to let them have access to (like no inflation, or massively reduced upkeep on troops to encourage a large military)

[[NWO]_Valis]

ability to settle in owned territory (which would be an act of war)

Nope, cant be cause it would be a major exploit possibility. Bring an army with a settlers and 5 i.e. savants. Found a city and do a culture bomb with your savants and voila, +20% defence slicing into enemy territory. Even more if you have the Homeland trait which would make it an offensive trait.

Birth of the Federation It was made by ppl who did Master of Orion 2, one of the best 4D games ever.

[Vehem]

Originally Posted by Mewtarthio

Unable to build Settlers should be simple enough: Just make all Settlers require the "Major Civilization" tech, which only the twenty-one playable civs start out with and cannot be researched or traded (much like "Seafaring" for the Lanun).

As a side benefit, you could also make "Major Civlization" an AND prereq for religion-founding techs if you don't want a minor civilization to have any chance of getting a religion.

Blocking Settler production at the Python level may be a simpler solution (using cannotConstruct() - it's the way markets and other non-military buildings are blocked during crusade).

Main benefit is that you don't have to add a new-tech and assign it to all major-civs. You can simply block your own civs without having to interfere with the others.

[Mortenart]

This could be implemented into FfH2 (with more detailed expansion mechanics) so that minor civs where on the map, having say one built up city and each one having different things to offer.

I love this idea. You`d need to have quite a few different minor Civs, so that you`d encounter different tribes each time you played, and how you dealt with them could add a great new angle to the game. If you befriended them and learnt their ways, you could follow new tech paths or build new units, or if you chose to destroy them you could discover some new resource or secret tech that could only be discovered in the remnants of their civilisation.

[it-ogo]

Hmm... "Minor" is a civ which do not pretend on victory.

OK here is a possible model. Minor civ start with a few (one) cities and can not build settlers. It start with several techs researched and several buildings in each city so from the beginning it is stronger then regular civs but it is not allowed to declare wars, capture cities, found religions (but sometimes can start with a holy city), spread religions outside its borders, trade for techs, cities and adopting religions. It is limited in research (maybe even can't research) and army size. It has one or more unique wonders/buildings/techs whith unique effects. It can rather easily give a tribute to stronger player but for the price of relationship penalty. It has much money (as it can not spend it to research and huge army).

Minor civ can propose a stronger major player with whom has good relations to join his empire. In this case major player gains all its cities with buildings and wonders as well as techs, money and units. If minor civ is conquered the conqueror gains everything but techs, money and units (unique buildings can not be destroyed). If someone ask a minor civ for a tribute (or especially declare war on it) then minor civ will more likely join other major civ (looking for protection) even if it is not so strong.

Maybe minor civ's palace is kept after joining with all its bonuses.

Is it hard to code?

[Farmer Bobathan]

Doesn't the team stop the elves from building siege units by making in the civinfos XML their unique unit for siege units NONE? What would stop someone from doing this to block settlers?

[Lance of Llanwy]

I don't think any intensive work on minor civs is effective: why code an entire civilization if it'll never be playable? The idea of splitting up the barbs seems to be a better application to me, because it seems to me that would be a good difference that isn't wasting effort on something the player can't enjoy for themselves.

[it-ogo]

You can produce existing minor civs from major with few changes.

[xienwolf]

The reason you cannot simply replace the UNITCLASS_SETTLER with NONE is that it would mean they do not recieve an initial settler. Thus cannot build their first city.

If you find a way to give them an initial city at the start of the game directly, or figure out how the initial settler promotion is applied and use the same mechanic to grant their initial warrior the ability to cast a spell that creates a city, then it is a viable option.

[Demus]

For the first option (initial city), you could try the same mechanism that gives barbarians their cities at the start of the game. The "spell" that creates a city could be the same as the "restore city" spell? Just remove the requirement of standing on top of city ruins.

The entire idea of a "minor" civ is the fact they don't need a lot of work per civ to implete, since they wouldn't have that many features distinguishing them from the other civs. They could range from a hunting tribe like the doviello, with slight differences on survival tactics, a trader civ halfway between the lanun and the kurio's etc. Or, as said before: get the idea's from Kael's D&D campaign.

[MagisterCultuum]

How did Rhye implement his minor civs? Can't we just copy him?

[BeefontheBone]

AFAIK they're pre-placed on the fixed map, or possibly arise using the 'Rise' mechanic.
I think the minor/major civ tech option is probably the best, since it's so flexible - using a spell would require getting the AI to cast it, for instance. Bit tricky to do it modularly this way, but obviously the same is true of a python block