Some thoughts after several games

[dyvim]

First I want to say that the FfH team has done an amazing job...
I love all i've seen for the moment in this game.

Nevertheless I have some remarks...

- Why are the calabim the only civ that can have units with more than 100 XP without fighting?
I don't think it's balanced and so that the vampiric power to feed on your own population should be limited to never give more than 100 XP.
As said it's only a question of balance.

- I thought Cassiel and his Grigoris weren't able to develop any religion...
but i have been allowed to found the Empyrean in one of my cities. And for what I know I should have been able to create council of Esus too.
Is it intended or is it necessary because for the moment these religions are intricated in the tree tech too deeply.
Can something be specifically coded to avoid them to found these religions?

- In a general manner, I think building is really long in this mod... It's reallly easy to discover techs that allow buildings you won't be able to build.
I know specialization is the way to go, but i really think that some ratios have been modified a bit too much.

- Is there any plan to add more alignments? like adding an other axe of alignment in the old AD&D (from Lawfull good to Chaotic evil). It can add some new diplomatic opportunities I think.

[Calbrenar]

Originally Posted by dyvim

First I want to say that the FfH team has done an amazing job...
I love all i've seen for the moment in this game.

Nevertheless I have some remarks...

- Why are the calabim the only civ that can have units with more than 100 XP without fighting?
I don't think it's balanced and so that the vampiric power to feed on your own population should be limited to never give more than 100 XP.
As said it's only a question of balance.

- I thought Cassiel and his Grigoris weren't able to develop any religion...
but i have been allowed to found the Empyrean in one of my cities. And for what I know I should have been able to create council of Esus too.
Is it intended or is it necessary because for the moment these religions are intricated in the tree tech too deeply.
Can something be specifically coded to avoid them to found these religions?

- In a general manner, I think building is really long in this mod... It's reallly easy to discover techs that allow buildings you won't be able to build.
I know specialization is the way to go, but i really think that some ratios have been modified a bit too much.

- Is there any plan to add more alignments? like adding an other axe of alignment in the old AD&D (from Lawfull good to Chaotic evil). It can add some new diplomatic opportunities I think.

Calabim require a large investment to get that off the ground. My guess is they typically get mobbed in MP games for precisely that reason. Same way Sheim probably would. They are simply too strong if left alone to "eco" up.

What speed are you playing at? Anything higher then normal results in ridiculously long research and build times--I think it has to do with the shortened tech tree. I never play it on those speeds myself -- 30+ turns for agriculture right off the bat -- yikes.

[dyvim]

Originally Posted by Calbrenar

Calabim require a large investment to get that off the ground. My guess is they typically get mobbed in MP games for precisely that reason. Same way Sheim probably would. They are simply too strong if left alone to "eco" up.

If they were limited, the problem will probably be solved.

What speed are you playing at? Anything higher then normal results in ridiculously long research and build times--I think it has to do with the shortened tech tree. I never play it on those speeds myself -- 30+ turns for agriculture right off the bat -- yikes.

I play most of the time at normal speed (sometimes i like to run marathon, but the game usually bugs before i see the end of that)
I wasn't speaking of research... for me it's adequate (perhaps a bit too easy/speedy)
It's building that costs a lot for me... but perhaps is it just a feeling caused by having played to much elves for my first games.

[Ecofarm]

Quick speed is the only way to go. It gives the AI a fighting chance, assuming you fight offensive wars (movement does not scale to the massive production of the defender).

And quick speed is used for multiplayer. We play PvP and vs. AI. Gamespy has been bizarre lately. We use direct IP via hamachi.

[Slvynn]

marathon is hard for FfH , maximum i tried epic, and found normal and quick is only applicable

[Nikis-Knight]

The Grigoir's limitation is that they cannot adopt a religion or build temples. That means also that they cannot build religious units including heroes, but since they can found them, they can control the councils.

[Calbrenar]

Originally Posted by dyvim

If they were limited, the problem will probably be solved.

I play most of the time at normal speed (sometimes i like to run marathon, but the game usually bugs before i see the end of that)
I wasn't speaking of research... for me it's adequate (perhaps a bit too easy/speedy)
It's building that costs a lot for me... but perhaps is it just a feeling caused by having played to much elves for my first games.

I'm not really sure how limiting would solve that problem. Even if they couldn't go over 100xp they would still be the fastest to get units to 100xp which imo is the main reason they would get mobbed. no matter how fast you kil ltheir stuff they could have capped units getting back at you which is why you need to block their Tower of complacency/unyielding order xp farms which again take them till late game.

If you removed the feasting ability which is the only way to really limit it then you just get rid of a unique feature of the game.

[dyvim]

If you would cap the XP they get by the feast ability, at least they won't be superior to any other civ in making super-powerfull (unstoppable?) units.
I don't think it's a problem to go to 100 XP, everyone could and will with a hero... even without going outside of his frontiers.
But calabims can go beyond this point... far too easy for me.

[BeefontheBone]

The Grigori AI won't research religious techs so won't found religions other than Emp and CoE (since those techs aren't dead ends so it needs to research them sometimes); there isn't a block to the Grigori founding religions but they can't adopt them.

[MaxAstro]

Actually, last I checked, Honor and Deception ~are~ dead end techs, and I've never understood why the Grigori can research them...

In my modmod, I moved Overcouncil and Undercouncil membership (not founding) to Way of the Wise/Wicked, and moved Defensived Pacts to Military Strategy. With those two changes, the Grigori can safely be banned from researching Honor and Deception, and thereby prevent Empyrean and Council of Esus (especially CoE) from becoming "dead" religions, which tends to happen if the Grigori found them. Actually, if the Grigori found CoE, since they can't adopt it and therefore can't spread it, AND religions spread more slowly in their territory, it's pretty much impossible for it to spread.

Also, moving council membership to Way of the Wise and Way of the Wicked makes it much harder for the council founder to dominate the council, since there is much less of a chance you will be the only member when you found the council.

[xienwolf]

Astro, I'd say that you probably ought to just cut/paste that last post into the Balance Thread. It would be nice to have members in the Councils as soon as they are founded and it would be lovely if Grigori would stop removing religions from the game.

[Sarisin]

The Grigori can also get the holy buildings for those two religions, if they found them. This gives them access to Shadow and Sun Mana and they get additional Gold if they happen to spread on their own. It is difficult for the Grigori sometimes to get Great Prophets, though, for the Empyrean holy building - you can use a Great Merchant for the C of E one.

When I play the Grigori, I try to found Empyrean, then, later build the Mercurian Gate in that city so Basium and his crew can build Chalid, those Priests (if they have Incense), and get the extra Gold by spreading the religion with Ecclesiastes. Usually, by the time Basium shows up all the religions would be founded already. So, that religion wouldn't die in that somewhat rare case.

However, I have yet to be in a game where anyone adopts C of E as its State religion or it spreads at all. I have founded it, but not done anything with it as I think the other religions are better. The lack of heroes and priest units is one reason.

It is logical, however, to move those two religions as the poster said.

[Ecofarm]

Originally Posted by Sarisin

The Grigori can also get the holy buildings for those two religions, if they found them. This gives them access to Shadow and Sun Mana and they get additional Gold if they happen to spread on their own. It is difficult for the Grigori sometimes to get Great Prophets, though, for the Empyrean holy building - you can use a Great Merchant for the C of E one.

When I play the Grigori, I try to found Empyrean, then, later build the Mercurian Gate in that city so Basium and his crew can build Chalid, those Priests (if they have Incense), and get the extra Gold by spreading the religion with Ecclesiastes. Usually, by the time Basium shows up all the religions would be founded already. So, that religion wouldn't die in that somewhat rare case.

However, I have yet to be in a game where anyone adopts C of E as its State religion or it spreads at all. I have founded it, but not done anything with it as I think the other religions are better. The lack of heroes and priest units is one reason.

It is logical, however, to move those two religions as the poster said.

As grigori:

1) Have reagents = lightbulb to strength of will, upgrade heros to adepts. Archmages ftw.

Originally Posted by Nikis-Knight

The Grigoir's limitation is that they cannot adopt a religion or build temples. That means also that they cannot build religious units including heroes, but since they can found them, they can control the councils.

2) No reagents = tech Esus (maybe currency before) then guilds (grab sorcery after tax). Upgrade heros to hunters then shadows. Fireballs + Shadows [10-12 strength (heroic), blitz, combat 5, mobility 2, marksman, invisible, HN], couple assassins, couple hunters for defense ftw. Tech sanitation + medicine during war and get medics to the front asap. You might want to send 1 shadow to a civ you are not at war with, but will be soon - just to kill all their Great People, workers, adepts and mages. The AI never uses a hawk to see invivibility and HN lets you attack whatever you want without retribution. You can imagine whan an effectively 22 moving 4 with blitz and marksman and no fear of counterattack can do to a civ... Using all 3 together, you can leave every city in a civ empty in a matter of few turns. The fireballs insure no sticking points (heros) and the assassins/hunters take cities (shadows cannot). As you push the AC via burning cities, make sure you have workers ready for blight!

[dyvim]

Originally Posted by MaxAstro

Actually, last I checked, Honor and Deception ~are~ dead end techs, and I've never understood why the Grigori can research them...

In my modmod, I moved Overcouncil and Undercouncil membership (not founding) to Way of the Wise/Wicked, and moved Defensived Pacts to Military Strategy. With those two changes, the Grigori can safely be banned from researching Honor and Deception, and thereby prevent Empyrean and Council of Esus (especially CoE) from becoming "dead" religions, which tends to happen if the Grigori found them. Actually, if the Grigori found CoE, since they can't adopt it and therefore can't spread it, AND religions spread more slowly in their territory, it's pretty much impossible for it to spread.

Also, moving council membership to Way of the Wise and Way of the Wicked makes it much harder for the council founder to dominate the council, since there is much less of a chance you will be the only member when you found the council.

That's exactly the kind of solution that i'd love to see FfH team use.

[Alzara]

Btw I have to disagree with ecofarm. Quick speed results in you ignoring most of the elements of FfH and, when combined with small maps, completely eliminates trade. The game feels more like turn based red alert.

Al

[psychoak]

Vampires with 100+ xp are not a cheeseball victory condition, against a brain anyway. Feudalism isn't a quick tech, and to make them dangerous you also need metals. Tier 2 religious or caster units can rip them apart very easily. They are very powerful, but very few in number. Try hippus, rush warhorses and build the ride of the nine kings wonder. I find building 95% withdrawal horse archers to be just as cheesy as vampires, if not more. I've not played multiplayer much, satellite connection, but my guess is that the right hippus player would shred them regardless of how powerful they made their vampires before attacking. They work very nice against the ai, but that's about it, cheese is everywhere in liberal amounts.