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Old Mar 21, 2009, 11:30 AM   #1641
Ninja Dude
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thlayli View Post
What an excellent update, NK.

OOC, I congratulate Krato on a well orchestrated backstab, and Moti on a well orchestrated attack.

In character, the High Oracle Ishalia invites the great Princes of the Moti to speak with her on terms of peace. Having proved themselves the stronger and slain the Redeemer, the Moti are victors by right.

We owe the Moti our fealty, and our respect.
OOC: Most of the credit should just go to das a Kal. They were the brain behind my muscle. However, I can't help but feel a little pride knowing that I had helped defeat the greatest army in the world.

I'm going to wait for stats before conducting diplomacy. Krato is probably half-dead now.
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Old Mar 21, 2009, 11:50 AM   #1642
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Yes...apparently I should have realized that raising massive blobs of militia and using them outside of your borders frequently is a good tactic.

I'll just have to raise my manpower and throw it at my nearest enemy next time.

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Originally Posted by conehead234 View Post
You back stabbing Thlayli
Nothing personal.
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Old Mar 21, 2009, 12:07 PM   #1643
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Again, I think you're reading too much into "militia". It does not refer to "militia" in the conventional sense of the word, simply levies. I'll change it to avoid further confusion.
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Old Mar 21, 2009, 12:15 PM   #1644
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I'm just at odds with the traditional interpretation of militia, or levies, as "people that don't fight war for a living that you use in times of greatest need." Typically in a historical context they don't wage offensive campaigns very well, unless augmented by a major (read: larger) force of professionals.
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Old Mar 21, 2009, 12:32 PM   #1645
das
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Militia and national levies and feudal levies are all very different from each other; also, the last two are definitely not just called upon at times of greatest need and not supposed to be outnumbered by professionals in order to be useful (the standard practice is to have a small-to-medium nucleus of professionals augmented by hordes of levied peasants doing assorted peasant things like taking fire, overwhelming enemy with numbers, undermining walls and so on, if I recall correctly).

Anyway, their quality can vary widely depending on exact levying practice and military tradition. 16th century Russian "battle peasants" were pretty awesome, I am told (for peasants, ofcourse), and implicitly so were the Chinese military settlers.
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Old Mar 21, 2009, 12:45 PM   #1646
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Well, we certainly aren't looking at feudal levies, and in the classical period, unless you have a very organized levy system, professionals and mercenaries did the bulk of the fighting.

I'm not really taking offense to Moti's military, as much as Krato, who basically slapped 50,000 peasants in the field and called them an army. And I'm not disputing the outcome of the update either, just trying to reform the practice by which ridiculously huge levy armies are raised without consequence, and professional troops are prohibitively expensive (for "normal" states) to raise in the thousands.
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Old Mar 21, 2009, 12:56 PM   #1647
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Who says it was without consequence, and yes, the armies as currently understood are too expensive. I will do my best to rectify this, but right now it scarcely matters because I can't update this for another month.
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Old Mar 21, 2009, 12:56 PM   #1648
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Quote:
we certainly aren't looking at feudal levies
Actually, I could totally raise a feudal levy if I want. I essentially enserfed (technically "enslaved", but it's much more like serfdom in this case - I could elaborate on that if you want) the Bisrians in familial lands, and though I don't think I actually had any of them mobilised, I probably could have done that at least in the Elephant Family territories if I wanted. Don't think I did that, though. Shame.

Quote:
in the classical period, unless you have a very organized levy system, professionals and mercenaries did the bulk of the fighting.
Depends on what country and period you are talking about. Middle Dynasty Egypt was pretty much all levies all the time, if I recall correctly. The Chinese certainly loved their levies, though not as much in pre-imperial period I guess. The Greeks and the Romans used militias or tried to do so for as long as it was remotely practicable, though, again, militias and levies are very very different.

Quote:
as much as Krato, who basically slapped 50,000 peasants in the field and called them an army.
Fun fact: as far as the godlikes are concerned, the word "Krato" is synonymous with "spare arrow fodder".
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"Hier liegt ein Fürst, der trotz des besten Willens keinen seiner Pläne durchsetzen konnte."
"Her Majesty has terrible dreams. She sees England as a small country that lives in peace, and no one at the court dares tell her that Rome started out the same way. His Catholic Majesty was once content with ruling half the world; I am afraid we will have to take all of it." - Humphrey Gilbert
"I am not at all a friend of humanity, Viscount replied. I am the enemy of its enemies." - S. Vititsky, "The Search for Designation, or the Twenty Seventh Theorem of Ethics".

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Old Mar 21, 2009, 02:50 PM   #1649
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Quite how many men had the Satari engage war with?!!?
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Old Mar 21, 2009, 03:14 PM   #1650
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thlayli View Post
Well, we certainly aren't looking at feudal levies, and in the classical period, unless you have a very organized levy system, professionals and mercenaries did the bulk of the fighting.

I'm not really taking offense to Moti's military, as much as Krato, who basically slapped 50,000 peasants in the field and called them an army. And I'm not disputing the outcome of the update either, just trying to reform the practice by which ridiculously huge levy armies are raised without consequence, and professional troops are prohibitively expensive (for "normal" states) to raise in the thousands.
Like NK said, there probably will be consequences. Heck, there are already some if you pay close attention. The Duroc are breaking up the middle of my country, and I'm probably really lacking money now. We'll see once stats are updated.

The Chiefs saw the Satar as a grave threat that needed to be stopped now, or else they would overrun us once they gained momentum.
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Old Mar 21, 2009, 03:40 PM   #1651
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Anyway, upon having finally actually read it, this update receives my personal seal of approval. Rejoice!

That said, because I am contractually and morally obligated to nitpick about something:

Quote:
The wind rose in the night and laid our plans to waste. ~ Ming proverb
This is not a proverb.

Also, the account of the Gallat-Ferman war is rather hard to follow, at least for a distant observer (especially Asamin's campaign).

But mostly I am just happy that you have finally gave my people the coverage they deserve, and that [sarcasm]it only took me having to fight against the mightiest empire in the world.[/sarcasm]

Quote:
A general comment – if you think you can squeeze a second campaign out of a turn, feel free. This was supposed to be a fifty year turn, enough for at least three campaigns, but all the participants in the Satar war detailed only one, so I cut the turn length considerably. And made the one campaign the decisive one, fancy that.
For what's it's worth, I did try to take that into account: hence the different phases. You could say that I had several different campaigns, too. Besides, they were planned so as to be extendable indefinitely or until a decisive result.

Also, Thlayli: it's pretty funny how over the last three turns you had forcefully shifted the balance of power on the western continent away from the maritime commercial civilisations to the inland dwelling peoples (especially the Uggor) and had managed to cripple and/or destroy just about everyone who could've stood against my continental predominance. Thank you so much! This will make building that world empire so much easier.

(Seriously though, between Thlayli burning all those cities, the fall of the Sesh, the rise of the unsustainable Trilui predominance and its current rapid decline, one would think that maritime civilisation world-wide, being commercial and therefore strongly interlinked, and also bound to suffer terribly just from the razing of some of the important trade centers alone, would enter a general period of decline economical, political and cultural, the centers of power generally and either gradually or drastically shifting to the more agrarian inland areas and correspondingly to the local elites. It would be rather disappointing if nothing of the kind were to happen is what I am hinting at.)
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"Hier liegt ein Fürst, der trotz des besten Willens keinen seiner Pläne durchsetzen konnte."
"Her Majesty has terrible dreams. She sees England as a small country that lives in peace, and no one at the court dares tell her that Rome started out the same way. His Catholic Majesty was once content with ruling half the world; I am afraid we will have to take all of it." - Humphrey Gilbert
"I am not at all a friend of humanity, Viscount replied. I am the enemy of its enemies." - S. Vititsky, "The Search for Designation, or the Twenty Seventh Theorem of Ethics".

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Old Mar 21, 2009, 03:58 PM   #1652
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Glad to see this updated. Can I take over Sira?
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Old Mar 21, 2009, 04:01 PM   #1653
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Lament For the Two Jewels of Helsia/Hailsia o Rafaia Pouro Faen Baraeba

-Myelai Raefenof

O my brother of Trovin,
Who now stands to weep?
Ruby of the Lovi, Sapphire of Helsia,
Stolen from our hearts,
Raped and shattered* by the eternally hated**,
Cast aside as a heap of death, mouldering.

O my brother of Trovin, hurled into the sea,
O my brother of Farou, crushed into the earth,
We mourn for you,
We will recover you,
Together we shall heal,
And destroy the destroyer***.


Say Tarofa o hayaera,
Sayfin raian gaio mourai?
Loaifa o Saraebaha, Hailsia o Paraiafo,
Fouru o ieraita,
Dahaiaou** o Treda*,
Farapay haigao rosaida said boroaf, ioura.

Say Tarofa o hayaera, sarafay daiaigoa cora,
Say Farou o hayaera, raesha daiaigoa thaera,
Daera say robouru,
Daera say parcouru,
Radmafae raena dae,
Fanai houa pahouaia***.


*Treda- A difficult to translate word, corresponding to a sense of irreversibly traumatic and physically brutal destruction. I have done my poor best to convey the strength and meaning of this word, within this context.

**Dahaiaou- A very powerful and taboo curse, literally meaning 'no sun', implying a person or thing upon which Haiaou does not shine- going against the Faronun maxim 'Haiaou shines upon us all', and implying that something is so irredeemably bad that even Haiaou, a thing that gives the gift of warmth and life and happiness without judgement and to all, would not bless it.

***Pahouaia- Another difficult translation, it has multiple meanings- in this context, it can refer to either destroying the destroyer, and getting revenge, or symbolically destroying the destruction, and undoing the terrible wounds, thus concluding this work with multiple possible, and most likely intended, meanings.

Note on Translation: Faronun and Faerouhaiaouan languages both share quite similar structures, or lacks thereof. Sentences can be phrased in many ways which would appear, in English, to be nonsensical. The importance of words in a Faronun sentence is determined by verbal emphasis, and a typical tendency of increasing importance throughout a sentence- in a sense, one could say that the best is saved for last. Formal Faronun, being heavily influenced by many other languages, has largely adopted a consistent subject-object-verb order, where one would say 'Child toy plays' instead of 'The Child plays with the toy'. However, informal Faronun and poetic Faronun frequently bend these rules for artistic affect.
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Old Mar 21, 2009, 04:26 PM   #1654
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Originally Posted by das View Post
Also, Thlayli: it's pretty funny how over the last three turns you had forcefully shifted the balance of power on the western continent away from the maritime commercial civilisations to the inland dwelling peoples (especially the Uggor) and had managed to cripple and/or destroy just about everyone who could've stood against my continental predominance. Thank you so much! This will make building that world empire so much easier.
That was the idea...whether or not the Satar actually won anything, my original goal (both IC and OOC) was to get rid of the moribund, stagnant empires that have been piddling away the last thousand years in a generally static fashion.

Now what exactly do you want to do with the Satar? Whichever of the Seven did not die will most likely be assassinated or otherwise discredited, but if you can get the High Oracle (Ishalia) to agree to terms, the Satar will agree.

The Satar are amenable to being PART of a world empire, as mercenaries or whatnot, as long as there is continued wealth and victory in it for them. Alternatively, they could swear a blood vengeance on all Uggor and make the Sesh and its' environs a living hell for the next couple centuries. It's your call.

From: Hashaskor, Prince of the Star
To: Faron


I command the garrison at Subal. It is the wish of my men, following the death of Third Redeemer Xetares, to travel north and rejoin their people. Given our destruction of your cities, you may not be inclined to grant this request for safe passage. However, you men of Faron greatly pride your cities and the lives of your citizens. You could perhaps take my life and the lives of my men, but we would kill the inhabitants of Subal before you were to do so. Know that I do not wish such a thing, as it is inglorious.

Allow my men to leave under terms of truce, and I shall offer you myself as a sacrifice. The blood of a Prince of the Satar should satisfy your people's calls for vengeance.
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Old Mar 21, 2009, 04:30 PM   #1655
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In an OOC sense, I'm disappointed that my state survived in a recognizeable form. I might have to shake things up a little bit more.
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Old Mar 21, 2009, 04:45 PM   #1656
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Originally Posted by Abaddon View Post
Quite how many men had the Satari engage war with?!!?
It was 55,000, though only about 40-45,000 actually fought.
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Old Mar 21, 2009, 04:51 PM   #1657
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To: Hashaskor
From: Shafay Fetosa, General of Faron


Begone, every last one of you, and never return to the lands of the Faronun and Faerouhaiaouan. Take nothing other than that which you have brought. We do not desire to have more of your spilled blood poisoning our lands any further.
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Old Mar 21, 2009, 05:48 PM   #1658
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OOC: ND please take no offence but I could not sit idly by and watch my people die. I confess to having some part in the Duroc uprising but I don't remember including reciting a full-blown rebellion in my orders.
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Old Mar 21, 2009, 06:27 PM   #1659
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I've cut a song which I think might make an appropriate theme for this update, and the NES in general.

End of Empires.zip
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Old Mar 21, 2009, 09:10 PM   #1660
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thlayli View Post
It was 55,000, though only about 40-45,000 actually fought.
I know the Kratoan force totalled 57,000. 55,000 levies and 2,000 professionals. So yeah, there were probably about ten thousand more troops than just the Kratoans.

Quote:
OOC: ND please take no offence but I could not sit idly by and watch my people die. I confess to having some part in the Duroc uprising but I don't remember including reciting a full-blown rebellion in my orders.
Hmm.... I'll take this into consideration. The Duroc people are closely tied with the Uggor. Hopefully we can end this quickly.
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