I can't stop Victoria from attacking! (HELP)

[Noobslayer9000]

Hello CFC, I've been a long-time lurker on these boards but never found the balls to post until now, lol. Anyhow, I'm currently in a Deity game (save attached) as Mehmed II with a small (5 cities) and unpowerful civilization. This is actually one of my first Deity games, and although most of you probably wouldn't advise it, I skipped quite a few difficulty levels to try it out.

The issue is this: virtually every time I try to replay this save, Victoria decides to attack me with a giant stack of doom at roughly 780 AD. I've already sucked up to her quite a bit (OB since meeting her, +3 fair trades, and we share Confucianism), and she is pleased with me, but no matter how hard I try she attacks me, instead of the HEATHEN Wang Kon on the same continent. Is my only option trying to trade for Monarchy/Feudalism, go HR and spam-whip Longbows every other turn? That would kind of condemn me to HR to the next eternity, not that that is particularly terrible, but I really want to see if I can in any way solve this diplomatically. Reloading saves might be called cheating, but I really want to make this game work and its a valuable learning experience. Please help!!

P.S. If you'll note, I'm running a trade route economy which is rather uncommon, however I've been having a high amount of success with it lately and I'll probably post a guide on it if I can also win this game.

[Gliese 581]

Diplomacy is most effectively conducted with the use or threat of an iron fist.

[Harry Potter52]

I can't say much... my only deity game ended in disaster but what i found was that you pay always.. whether they like you or not. So stop appeasing her. In fact get Wang Kon to attack her. That will buy you time.

[Belisar]

Originally Posted by Noobslayer9000

I'm currently in a Deity game (save attached) as Mehmed II with a small (5 cities) and unpowerful civilization.

virtually every time I try to replay this save, Victoria decides to attack me with a giant stack of doom at roughly 780 AD.

Three things:

1. In general, if you are looking too tasty, you need a lot of luck not to get DoWed.
2. Some civs attack even while "pleased". There is an attidude table somewhere on the forum with the exact list. I would have to dig it out but I "think" Vicky is not among those nuts, which brings me to
3. She may have "decided" to attack you while her attitude was below "pleased"

[semirami]

2. Some civs attack even while "pleased". There is an attidude table somewhere on the forum with the exact list. I would have to dig it out but I "think" Vicky is not among those nuts, which brings me to

Vicky is a well known backstaber. She can deffinetely attack at pleased.

[kazapp]

As a rule of thumb, check the power graph once in a while (not the score graph, the power graph).

Always build enough troops to not be lowest of the civs you can see. Second weakest is much better than weakest.

This isn't a guarantee you'll never be DOWed, but it does serve the important purpose of not falling too far behind. The AIs tend to watch this score pretty diligently, and if you beat at least one AI, chances are you're still in the race.

In addition, when you do get DOWed, you should find your army up to the task of fending off the attack. (Unless you get dogpiled because you have mismanaged relations, or your Longbows get attacked by Infantry).

Obviously, if one of your neighbours is a small, weak, isolated Civ, you might not want to count it, instead striving for third weakest. Etc.

Zapp

PS. And oh, just because you get DOWed, don't panic. Sometimes there actually isn't a big Stack of Doom waiting on your border. The AIs sometimes just DOW with no particular plans to invade. Of course, you're not always this lucky, but sometimes the only enemy units are a trickle of easily killed raiders (Chariots, Horse Archers, Cavalry etc). I'm not saying you shouldn't panic I'm just saying you should wait until you're actually invaded!

[troytheface]

"...every time I try to replay this save..."
When reloading to win a game it is important to reload back to the furthest save, that way you know everything that is going to happen and can plan for it. It is like breaking the enemy's code without actually spying.
One of the greatest reloading diety players of all time is reported to have said , "there is not one win that cannot be attained with the correct reloading procedure"

[Gliese 581]

Actually around half the leaders in the game can attack you at pleased.

[Belisar]

Gliese is right on Viky, I checked and she has only 80% NOWAR-prob. at pleased.

[Fezzik]

Originally Posted by Noobslayer9000

The issue is this: virtually every time I try to replay this save, Victoria decides to attack me with a giant stack of doom at roughly 780 AD.

One thing I noticed is that the save is at 700 AD. From what I've heard around here, the AI "decides" to go to war several turns prior to actually doing it. Then builds units and prepares for war and finally declares. So, unfortunately, it's possible there is nothing you can do to prevent it at 700 AD.

Also, you don't have enough espionage points on Victoria, so you can't see her power rating. But if it's anything like Wang Kon's, who is in second place to her, you have less than half their power rating. She's attacking you, not him, because he is about as powerful as her.

Hmm, just took another look and Brennus is Victoria's Vassal, and he hates you. That's probably it.

I'd try my best to defend and then start over. Your land is not that great. 2 cities are mostly desert. Only the capital is really good with those gems. It's funny, you have 0 trees. Little chop happy? Your continent is unexplored pretty late in the game. Brennus wouldn't open borders?

I'd also switch to Organized Religion if you're producing buildings in 4 out of 5 cities. You have all those civics you're not using. Anything is better than Paganism. And techs and resources you can trade, including with Victoria. Also, beelining Liberalism before getting Alphabet?

[Noobslayer9000]

Originally Posted by Fezzik

I'd try my best to defend and then start over. Your land is not that great. 2 cities are mostly desert. Only the capital is really good with those gems. It's funny, you have 0 trees. Little chop happy? Your continent is unexplored pretty late in the game. Brennus wouldn't open borders?

I'd also switch to Organized Religion if you're producing buildings in 4 out of 5 cities. You have all those civics you're not using. Anything is better than Paganism. And techs and resources you can trade, including with Victoria. Also, beelining Liberalism before getting Alphabet?

Constructive criticism is always welcome but I want to point out a few things.

- My land is not that great, but my cities are. With all my staple buildings cheap as Exp/Org and lots of whipping, my desert cities are getting infrastructure up very fast, and pumping out lots of commerce with Libs/Harbors/GLH.

- I can afford to have 0 trees being expansive. Cheap granaries + Expansive = lots of health. None of my cities are unhealthy.

- In my previous state of sucking up to Victoria, she actually asked me to stop trading with Brennus (even though he was her vassal?), and so I just accepted not wanting to piss her off.

- On the religion civics, that was an honest mistake, albeit not a very big one. Vicky was swapping religion quite a bit early on and I remained neutral for the whole game until fairly close to the posted save. I should probably switch to OR, although it isn't quite game-breaking.

- I don't have Alphabet, but does it really matter if every other civ has it? I can save up my EPs (which are few) for as long as I need before using them. Meanwhile, I'm going to win the liberalism race with a decent capital (no bureaucracy) and 4 crappy cities. I'd rather put my beakers towards that than to grab Alphabet, and although I can trade for it, I'm just trying to stay safe and only trade the techs I have on the AI after I grab Liberalism. It IS one of my first Deity games, and I'm a little scared of the AI tech rate.


Anyhow, thanks everyone for responding, and it's all good feedback, but not exactly what I wanted. I know I need to buck up and build more military, and that will be a lesson well learned for other games, but right now I'm just trying to solve this one -- Is there any solid way to stop an AI from attacking you after they've "already got enough on their hands"? If you get them to friendly will they stop? If I swapped religions and bribed Korea to attack would it buy me time? etc. I'm sure I could pump out enough military in my capital to probably not lose it to Vicky, and might even win the Lib race without the rest of my cities, but I won't be able to do much after that unless I get VERY lucky.

Tips?

[semirami]

If you get them to friendly will they stop?

The answer is no

If I swapped religions and bribed Korea to attack would it buy me time?

Probably yes. I believe the decission for going to war is cancelled, if they are DoWed by another AI.

[CivCorpse]

I looked at the save. You're a goner. Not only are you miles behind in tech. But Brennus is Viccies vassal so he is going to beat you up too. Bribing wangkon is not an option eaither. He is "Afraid of her military might"...and check the power graph...he is wayyyyyy above you and HE is scared of her. She also won't betray her close friend to attack wang. My advice is get some butter and jelly....if you're toast you might as well be tasty.

[Harry Potter52]

Try the other levels before this massive jump.. I made the same mistake.

[DanF5771]

Originally Posted by Noobslayer9000

Is there any solid way to stop an AI from attacking you after they've "already got enough on their hands"?

This is the time when you should try the "Get a peace treaty + 1 gold" trick = arrogantly demand 1 gold from Vicky and enjoy another 10+x turns of your "sorry excuse for a deity life"

[Bast]

I tried a few turns of this just out of curiousity and Victoria didn't declare war. In fact, we traded resources and techs.

So I don't know maybe try again?

[Dirk1302]

In the save Vicky has already decided to attack you ("enough on our hands"), nothing you can do about it now. Most leaders can attack at pleased but chances are slim, i think that if you checked all your saves you'll find she decided to attack you at cautious and you got here to pleased afterwards this is almost always the case, i very seldom have leaders like Vicky declaring on me when they were genuinly pleased me at the moment they made that decision. Shaka, Monty, Alex, and Ghenghis are exceptions to this rule of thumb of course.

I'd be interested in an earlier save where she hasn't decided yet to see if disaster can be averted. Someone said that a SOD isn't really always that bad, well on Deity it means instant death, noway you can hold off an ai at that stage diplomacy is the only way, around 1500 with globe, military advantage, HE in place etc your chances are better.

[darrelljs]

Unconqured Sun seems to scan for WHEOOH every turn, and will often declare on an AI as soon as he sees they have decided to prepare for war against him. That way the "refuses to talk" turn counter has time to expire before the AI can bring a true SoD to your borders. I would say in your situation it is too late for this tactic to work, but consider it in the future.

Darrell