I got dow'ed by the AI at friendly and within a def.pact!?

[Conquistador 63]

Has this happened to anyone? In a BTS game, I've been friendly with one AI for a long while, we shared a war against a third party, which ended with this second AI capitulating to me.

Of course, from that point the real relationship status between the "friendly" AI and me is lower than it showed because of my vassal. But much later on, the option for a def.pact between us is finally available. I go for it, just to see it declare on me the very next turn! :eek!:

I checked the xml spreadsheet and noticed that my "friend" has 0% chance of declaring if cautious or better. I also thought that the def.pact couldn't be cancelled before 10 turns. What am I missing here?!?

[AngryZealot]

Who was your friend?

[Conquistador 63]

Queen Boudica of the Celts.

[patagonia]

Originally Posted by Conquistador 63

Has this happened to anyone? In a BTS game, I've been friendly with one AI for a long while, we shared a war against a third party, which ended with this second AI capitulating to me.

Of course, from that point the real relationship status between the "friendly" AI and me is lower than it showed because of my vassal. But much later on, the option for a def.pact between us is finally available. I go for it, just to see it declare on me the very next turn! :eek!:

I checked the xml spreadsheet and noticed that my "friend" has 0% chance of declaring if cautious or better. I also thought that the def.pact couldn't be cancelled before 10 turns. What am I missing here?!?

I've highlighted the relevant bit of your post.

When determining relations, the AI averages how it feels with all members of your "team" - vassals count for this. By taking a vassal that Boudicca hated, it affected her chance of declaring against you (eg friendly with you plus furious with your vassal averages out at cautious overall). The defensive pact was with you, not your vassal, therefore she was free to declare.

The moral of the story is to be careful who you capitulate.

[Conquistador 63]

I'm aware the relationship is measured towards the team, and so is the availability of the def.pact. Even if I had the relevant tech, the DP wasn't available for a long while showing our "average relationship" wasn't so good. But then it became available. I could even understand she had decided to attack me earlier, but what intrigues me most is the fact the 10 turn period required to cancel the DP was ignored.

[Dirk1302]

Have you checked the saves for "enough on our hands"?

[Napalm102]

Is AP active? Maybe he got a vote for declaring war on infidels, it cancels all agreements and can declare wars even before 10 turns expire AFAIK.

Another possibility is a colony bug, I think it also overrides any agreements. So check if your friend hasn't created a colony, which may have replaced an earlier destroyed civ.

If his invasion stack didn't appear immediatelly within your borders (or your vassals), then the above is a very likelly scenario. If it did then it was a premediated attack plan, which was in works since before you were friendly.

[zebomba2]

The AI is said to decide to attack much before it actually does. Some backstabbing is also fun, don't we do it against the AI anyway?

[TheMeInTeam]

Originally Posted by patagonia

I've highlighted the relevant bit of your post.

When determining relations, the AI averages how it feels with all members of your "team" - vassals count for this. By taking a vassal that Boudicca hated, it affected her chance of declaring against you (eg friendly with you plus furious with your vassal averages out at cautious overall). The defensive pact was with you, not your vassal, therefore she was free to declare.

The moral of the story is to be careful who you capitulate.

This is a stupid mechanic for capitulations IMO, but Patagonia is absolutely correct. It's a hard lesson to learn if you do so by experience .

[Bleys]

The DoW on you was probably triggered by him DoWing on your vassal. I had this happen recently, I had a vassal, another AI that I was pleased with DoWed on that vassal, and I got co-DoWed on. I know he was going for the vassal because he moved his stack toward his cities, mine were a way off.

[DMOC]

Originally Posted by Conquistador 63

I checked the xml spreadsheet and noticed that my "friend" has 0% chance of declaring if cautious or better. I also thought that the def.pact couldn't be cancelled before 10 turns. What am I missing here?!?

I would have thought that an Aggressive Civ like Queen Boudica would have a much higher %...

In my opinion, from what I can make of this situation, is that Boudica was furious at your vassal and planned to declare war on you after your vassal capitulated.

[Conquistador 63]

Originally Posted by Napalm102

Is AP active? Maybe he got a vote for declaring war on infidels, it cancels all agreements and can declare wars even before 10 turns expire AFAIK.

Another possibility is a colony bug, I think it also overrides any agreements. So check if your friend hasn't created a colony, which may have replaced an earlier destroyed civ.

If his invasion stack didn't appear immediatelly within your borders (or your vassals), then the above is a very likelly scenario. If it did then it was a premediated attack plan, which was in works since before you were friendly.

There is an AP, but the owner and Boudica have different religions, and I was in FR. No colonies were created, nor any civs have been destroyed. He had a stack sitting inside one of my cities for a long time, which was expelled to a single tile island outside my borders upon declaring.

Originally Posted by zebomba2

The AI is said to decide to attack much before it actually does. Some backstabbing is also fun, don't we do it against the AI anyway?

Sure, but not within the 10 turn period after any trade is made in BTS (resource, DP).

Originally Posted by DMOC

I would have thought that an Aggressive Civ like Queen Boudica would have a much higher %...

In my opinion, from what I can make of this situation, is that Boudica was furious at your vassal and planned to declare war on you after your vassal capitulated.

Quite possible, but as noted above this shouldn't be possible before the 10 turn period expired.

[TheMeInTeam]

Patagonia answered your question. Having vassals that the AI is not also friendly with lowers your effective relations with them. It's stupid, broken, and I hate it, but it's reality. Powerful friends will declare on you for defeating (but not totally eliminating) enemy civs, despite the fact that said enemy civs will occasionally capitulate to your friends even when they barely lift a finger and barely have a higher power rating. YOU SHOULD NOT TAKE DIPLO HITS FOR CAPITULATIONS, JUST VOLUNTARY PROTECTION OF VASSALS. But you do, so there you have it.

[Conquistador 63]

After some searching in the BTS forums (general and bug report) I believe I found the answer - it is a bug involving the creation of a colony by the AI (as Napalm102 mentioned). When I said there was no new colony I just probably haven't contacted this colony yet.

[Diamondeye]

Originally Posted by Conquistador 63

After some searching in the BTS forums (general and bug report) I believe I found the answer - it is a bug involving the creation of a colony by the AI (as Napalm102 mentioned). When I said there was no new colony I just probably haven't contacted this colony yet.

I dont think so. If you know the civ forming the colony, you meet the colony instantly, IIRC. That, and the bug only erupts if they inherit the stats of an AI you were at war with, and destroyed.

No, I think this is due to the fact that Boedica was at war with the AI that capitulated. See if you can load from before the capi, bribe Boedica to stop the war, and then make the other AI capi.

[Conquistador 63]

@Diamondeye: maybe you're right. After I finished the game (Space Race win) I wasn't able to find any evidence of a colony being created. Oddly enough, my vassal capitulated @t229/1595AD and Boudica declared on me and my vassal ages later, @ t296/1852AD. I was able to get peace some 7 turns later, though. In the end, it was just a minor delay for my space win.
Still, I don't get the part of her declaring on me 1t after we sign a DP. I've been told that in BTS you can't declare within 10t of any deal, be it a resource trade or something, like in a peace treaty.

[Bleys]

I dont think she declared on you. She declared on your vassal, which carries an automatic declaration on the master. In the Genghis Khan RPC game, I have had this happen twice now, I took Sal as a voluntary vassal, and Charlemenge DoWed on Sal. This triggered an automatic DoW on me, but he didnt even have units near me, they were all focused on Sal's cities.

[Validator]

Originally Posted by Conquistador 63

I've been told that in BTS you can't declare within 10t of any deal, be it a resource trade or something, like in a peace treaty.

I don't think that is correct. AFAIK the only trade deals that bring with them an automatic 10 turn peace treaty are tribute deals (regardless of whether it's resource or tech or gold, or whether you're on the receiving or giving end of the tribute).

[SharpMango]

for a vaguely easy answer.....
Look through the report the game gives at the end..in 220bc 'X happened' etc..the map screen?
see the order of the declarations of war..
the AI probably declared war on your vassal first, though i do agree... a defensive pact AI declaring war on u is bad code..

[redmosquito]

Originally Posted by Validator

I don't think that is correct. AFAIK the only trade deals that bring with them an automatic 10 turn peace treaty are tribute deals (regardless of whether it's resource or tech or gold, or whether you're on the receiving or giving end of the tribute).

Im not sure about this one but I think ordinary trade deals enforce a 10turns peace treaty as well