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Old Jul 24, 2002, 06:58 AM   #1
poprawkz
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Culture Flipping - Historical Examples

"1. CF is non-historical and unrealistic. NEVER happened in History, that despite the warped efforts of those who distort reality to try to find examples of CF." -Zouave

One word.

Melungeons.

They are a people with uncertain history. But the known facts are these... They are -not- pure native american, they became absorbed into the american colonists culture, and they were not happy or have an easy time with this. Now the fact that they are not pure native americans means that they too must have absorbed another culture into their own, before being swallowed whole by the colonists culture. Melungeons are now unsure of their own roots from so much culture 'flipping'.

What about Egypt? Cleopatra was a Greek remember?

Take a look at WWII Japan and look at pressent day Japan. I would say western culture conquered more than western weaponry.

Britains lost empire. While its true Britain no longer controls its empire as it once had, there is no doubt that their culture lives on as a legacy in each of the places they controlled. Many South African caucasians, Austrailians, and Brits alike are mistaken in their traits and customs.

"If you can't beat them, join them."

Having a culture act as you would have them act is just as good as controlling how you would have them act.

On a final note, my tips for controlling culture flipping is to have each city I conquer immediately begin production on a library, if I have any spare units (longbowman, swordsman, etc.) I disband them in the city for rushed production and write it off as ordinance disposal.

In my most recent game as the Germans I was attempting global domination through superior firepower and had wiped out france, china, russia, most of egypt, and was finishing off france when suddenly I acheived cultural victory. Kinda ticked me off really -- apparently rush building libraries like that over 60% of the map builds up hellascious amounts of culture. As I was finishing off egypt I had loads of artillery lying around that I had captured from france and china so I was disbanding artillery to rush universities. Who needs artillery that lags behind your troops when you have carriers?

Anyways... just my two golds.

Last edited by Cunobelin Of Hippo; Jul 24, 2002 at 09:45 AM.
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Old Jul 24, 2002, 09:41 AM   #2
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Nice try, but all you'll do is bring out the same WHINING reply.

I've NEVER lost one of my own cities to CF, and only 1-2 times out of hundreds of cities captured in dozens of games.

And that's using stock rules, no edits anywhere.

The dude just loves being a little priss about it.
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Old Jul 24, 2002, 09:44 AM   #3
Cunobelin Of Hippo
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poprawkz, please do not refer to anyone in your thread title. I have edited it out, and replaced it. Should you like a different title, PM me.
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Old Jul 24, 2002, 09:47 AM   #4
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This was already done b4 i think
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Old Jul 24, 2002, 10:14 AM   #5
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There is a difference in CF as implied in the game and culture assimilation and influence you described.

Kind of like saying apples and oranges are the same thing becuase they are both fruit grown on a tree.
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Old Jul 24, 2002, 02:31 PM   #6
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Historical Examples

How about these historical examples?:

The state of Virginia secedes from the United States to join the Confederacy. About 1/3 of the state then secedes from Virginia (becomes W. Virginia) and rejoins the US.

Another close example: the city of Strasbourg, France. Throughout history it has switched between being a German and a French city. Granted, most of these changes occured through warfare. However, at one point in its history, the city leaders petioned to join the Swiss confederation but were rejected by the Swiss because they feared the city would have been too hard to defend. Sounds to me mighty similar to the option you are given in Civ III when the people of another civ ask to join your empire.

Last edited by JBearIt; Jul 24, 2002 at 04:01 PM.
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Old Jul 24, 2002, 02:52 PM   #7
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What about Texas? In Civ3 terms, one could make the argument that Texas culture-flipped from Mexico to the US in 1836. The Mexican War was Mexico's unsuccessful attempt to reclaim it. (And yes, I know that Texas declared its independence, but the express purpose behind that was to join the United States.)
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Old Jul 24, 2002, 03:07 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jimcat
What about Texas? In Civ3 terms, one could make the argument that Texas culture-flipped from Mexico to the US in 1836. The Mexican War was Mexico's unsuccessful attempt to reclaim it. ....
True, but it was due to American immigration. Mexico offered cheap land to Americans to settle Texas, build its infrastructure. Soon, Americans outnumbered Mexicans and Ta-Dah, revolution.
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Old Jul 24, 2002, 04:51 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by Koronin
Nice try, but all you'll do is bring out the same WHINING reply.

I've NEVER lost one of my own cities to CF, and only 1-2 times out of hundreds of cities captured in dozens of games.

And that's using stock rules, no edits anywhere.

The dude just loves being a little priss about it.

Hey dude. Stop being a little fanboy Firaxis apologist. I had enough of them last December telling us how "FABULOUS!!!" the beta Civ 3 was even before the first patch. If Firaxis didn't have critics keeping them honest you'd have likely gotten no patches.
Don't have to thank me; it's OK.

And this thread is about alleged "historical examples", not the game system.

More soon. . .
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Old Jul 24, 2002, 05:06 PM   #10
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Re: Historical Examples

Quote:
Originally posted by JBearIt
How about these historical examples?:

The state of Virginia secedes from the United States to join the Confederacy. About 1/3 of the state then secedes from Virginia (becomes W. Virginia) and rejoins the US.

Another close example: the city of Strasbourg, France. Throughout history it has switched between being a German and a French city. Granted, most of these changes occured through warfare. However, at one point in its history, the city leaders petioned to join the Swiss confederation but were rejected by the Swiss because they feared the city would have been too hard to defend. Sounds to me mighty similar to the option you are given in Civ III when the people of another civ ask to join your empire.

FIRST OF ALL, the concept of CF is screwed up in the IDIOTIC GAME MECHANICS and in the way it is implemented in the game, both regarding cities and borders. That is my MAIN complaint.
Cities of '12' that have been part of one civ for 5,000 years do not suddenly decide to join another civ based on some arbitrary formula dreamed up by a computer programmer with no known credits in History. Huge garrisons do not vanish. Borders do not flip over resources. Not in reality.

So the WAY it is implemented is dumb.

But let's just look at the idea of one city being culturally 'taken over" by another. . .

I posted many times that cities HAVE surrendered to overwhelming MILITARY force that terroriszed other cities. Mongols did it, and so did many other to lesser extents. Even the Egyptians made a point of displaying the cut off body parts of defeated enemies. But this accurate concept is not in Civ 3. Oh no. A stack of FIFTY elite legionaries could approach a town with one conscript warrior and that town would not surrender; it would have to still be attacked.

But let's get to specific examples cited. . .

Western Virginia was part of the Appalachian Mountains, and that entire region hated the lowland and tidewater plantation and slave owners who seceded from the Union. What became West Virginia simply REMAINED in the Union - and they did so for ECONOMIC reasons. They never "flipped" they never really left; their interests were alsways the same as the Union. Their was pro-Union sentiments wre prevalent right through the Appalchains even into northern Alabama.

You want ECONOMIC strength to have an effect on controlling territory? OK with me.

You admitted Starsbourg usually was controlled due to WAR. The SiNGLE example you cited clearly was an aberration, and even if it did whatever garrison was in it would not have vanished. Cite the date of this alleged incident and I'll investigate it further. But it is clearly an ABERRATION.

keep 'em coming. . .

Last edited by Zouave; Jul 24, 2002 at 05:10 PM.
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Old Jul 24, 2002, 05:12 PM   #11
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Ya, I wasnt trying to attack Zouave in this post, I was just expressing my opinion on the rationale behind culture flipping. Granted the games system could probably use some tweaking and I'm not defending the current system... I was just trying to get out that similar things happen in the real world, and this is just the binary translation. Much like how in the real world all cities do not fit inside one perfect neat little square, and how in the real world we dont always move in perpindicular directions following the 8 semi cardinal directions, heh.

-edit-

In addendum to this, what it boils down to is the need for the game creators to offer something to the playerbase who prefers non combat methods of victory. Too many games center around killing and destruction as the main way to advance, (at least all my favorites do) and culture flipping was their answer (or at least a partial one at that).
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Old Jul 24, 2002, 05:27 PM   #12
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poprawkz,

Melungeons. Oh brother. You make a list of cities controlled by them, or armies of them. They were never a civilization, and barely constitute a tiny unique ethnic group for a very brief period. For those who care, they were multi or tri-racial people in the South pre-Civil War, or those who just didn't look quite white. It was all unique to the bizarre ante-bellum South. Go write a monograph on their partial assimilation into Southern society. They have nothing to do with large cities or civilizations.

Your reference to Cleopatra proves what I said about desperate CF fans distorting History. Egypt was MILITARILY conquered by Alexander, and one of his generals, Ptolemy, having survived the Diadochian Wars (as did Seleucus and Antigonus), set up his Greek Dynasty on Egypt, and Cleopatra was his descendant.

Japan was first CONQUERED MILITARILY. Only then did its society and culture become Westernized.

Parts of European culture can be found in much of the so-called Third World, just as Greek Hellenic culture spread throughout Asia with Alexander. That has nothing to do with Culture Flipping cities and borders.

This is boring, these lame examples you cite.

I have to play Civ 3 and see if Editing Culture "resistance" down to zero stops Flipping.

Later. . .

Last edited by Zouave; Jul 24, 2002 at 05:34 PM.
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Old Jul 24, 2002, 05:37 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zouave
Melungeons. Oh brother. You make a list of cities controlled by them, or armies of them. They were never a civilization, and barely constitute a tiny unique ethnic group for a very brief period.
Exactly - they had no culture and thus were easily culture-flipped....
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Old Jul 24, 2002, 05:40 PM   #14
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LoL Isak.

Zouave/Coracle, just some friendly advice, try not to call people fanboys whenever they try to defend or explain some part of the game mechanics that you disagree with. It doesn't bode well for other people's outlook on you or your arguments.

Culture flipping as it's implimented is pretty annoying, and could be done in a much better way. Again, I'll repeat my explanation for why Firaxis did it the way it did... not my defense of it. I'll follow up with a bit of a summary and some final comments.

(Almost) random culture flipping is basically Firaxis warning you not to attack your neighbor and expand only by war, or else something will happen. Mom telling you not to touch the stove, so to speak. Sometimes it'll be on, sometimes it won't.

The part about garrisons vanishing is extremely annoying and I think it could be done in a much better way was put in because of the fact that if a city culture flipped and your units get deposited outside the city, then you'd go and take it the next turn. The whole point of culture flipping is to prevent/slow down aggressive expansion. Using Civ 2 Partisans would be much better, but there's no hope for that in Civ 3, so it's best not to complain about it too much.

'Culture flipping' could happen in real life, but only with certain factors (which aren't represented in Civ 3). Rebellious barons, unhappy peasants, economic reasons, hidden garrison, etc. aren't present in Civ 3 to back up culture flipping. I think a little more depth in that area would make flipping seem more realistic, along with a few other motivating factors would be beneficial. But again, this won't be in Civ 3 so it's not worth worrying about.
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Old Jul 24, 2002, 05:44 PM   #15
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Ok,I'll give examples again.

Savoy and Nice voted to be french in 1860.
Palestine is the best example.
Mongolia in the 20th century liberating itself from chinese rule.
India from British rule.
Algeria and Vietnam from french rule etc etc.
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Old Jul 24, 2002, 05:46 PM   #16
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Culture flip do not apply to us here in province of quebec, after several centuries we still have our own culture. Cultur flip suck.
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Old Jul 24, 2002, 05:53 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Trip
LoL Isak.

try not to call people fanboys whenever they try to defend or explain some part of the game mechanics. . .
My name on this forum is Zouave. Use it, fella. Furthermore, I NEVER call someone a "fanboy" unless they first have attacked me as a "whiner" - something they have done to anyone who correctly and acurately crtiticized this game since it came out. And I won't take it with a smile, not after eight months of that stuff.

Your lecturing tone - and personal references - does not deserve further response.

BTW, the topic of this thread is "Historical Examples". I see you were unable to post any either.
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Old Jul 24, 2002, 06:04 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Damien
Ok,I'll give examples again.

Savoy and Nice voted to be french in 1860.
Palestine is the best example.
Mongolia in the 20th century liberating itself from chinese rule.
India from British rule.
Algeria and Vietnam from french rule etc etc.
There was no Italian Civilization or nation at the time, that was coming. It was filled with city states. The coat of arms of the future Italian flag {up to 1945) was that of Savoy - a region that sought French protection from AUSTRIAN MILITARY THREATS. Wars there had just been fought (major battles at Magenta and Solferino). So no sale.

Palestine? Culture Flipping from Israel?? The Zionists took it over (rightly or wrongly) by force, and the Palestinians want out. And don't tell me the Zionists "bought some of the land" - from absentee Turkish landlords. Not much, and not relevant.

If Mongolia "liberated itself" it didn't "flip" to anyone. And the only reason they did was because they were a client state supported by the Soviet MILITARY.

Algeria was conquerd MILITARILY by the French in the mid-19th century, and Vietnam in the latter part of the 19th Century. The Vietnamese fought a WAR to kick out the French, as did the Algerians in the Fifties and early Sixties. Yes, De Gaulle agreed to leave Algeria, but only after the continuing warfare and terrorism. Algeria didn't just collect more "Culture" and "Flip". BTW, the OAS was formed by disgruntled French army officers to oppose this move and kill DeGaulle - see the movie "Day of the Jackal". It had nothing to do with "Culture Flipping".

Enough of these feeble "examples".

I have to play Civ 3 and see if my changes in the Editor killed off CF.

Outta here. . .

Oh, India. The British conquered India. Following two costly world
wars, the rise in nationalism throughout the world, and the many actions of Gandhi, itwas no longer politically, miliarily, or economically feasible for Britain to stay. And India gaining its independence is not the same thing as one large civ's city "flipping" to another large civ.

Last edited by Zouave; Jul 24, 2002 at 06:09 PM.
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Old Jul 24, 2002, 06:23 PM   #19
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Actually Tassadar, I would say that it does apply. Even centuries after being conquered, the "French" citizens of "English" controled Québec still yearns to break free of the canadians and join the french civilization (NOT country - that's one major problem with CF, people just don't get that, especially in the late game, civilization is not equal to a modern country, but a group of them - IE, "English" civilization would be england + most of commonwealth in the modern world ; there would probably only be one civ for the EU, etc) (btw, I'm from Québec too).

And in *THAT* sense, small territories changing allegiance from one group to another, closer, strongly diffusing its culture group makes sense.

IE, the countries of the Warsaw pact and the ex-USSR republics flipping away from Moscow and toward Europe.
IE, the West Bank trying to flip away from Israel and toward the Arab "civ".
IE, Canada pretty much flipping away from England toward the US (because even though it is still a free country that does not obey the US directly, most of it is indeed on a political level rather close to the United States - closer than a mere MPP)

In fact, it can be argued that while the US do have military to back up their actions, they have also converted to their culture many other countries without the need for military action. These minor countries may not be entirely slaves of America, but they do tend to follow America closely.

And, given a game that limit the number of civilizations, having "rebel" cities become their own country would be well-nigh impossible, not to mention ridiculous (take the city, and the civ is offed permanently...which would be made even easier if units were kept alive and just moved to the new border.

Given the game constraints, culture flip is a rather decent way (though units could, say, have been brought back to their capital rather than discarded entirely) to represent what is, in fact, an actual historical phenomenon. It could be much better, yes, but it does make sense.

On a side note, territory square changing culture does *NOT* represent empty territory changing hand. There *IS* people there even if there's no city - scattered houses and the like. So when the square culture flip, it represent the citizen of that particular square starting to think of themselves as "Chinesse" instead of "Germans" because they see a lot more of the Chinesse influence. In ancient times, with borders being a rather uncertain thing, this would make sense.

HOWEVER, one may note that borders should become a lot less fluid once one discovers nationalism.
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Old Jul 24, 2002, 06:53 PM   #20
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Palestine? Culture Flipping from Israel?? The Zionists took it over (rightly or wrongly) by force, and the Palestinians want out. And don't tell me the Zionists "bought some of the land" - from absentee Turkish landlords. Not much, and not relevant.
Your history knowledge about Palestine is screwed, but I don't want to drag this OT.
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