Question about City Specialization

[Lexicus]

My question is this. I played a game where I successfully specialized my cities, but I wanted to know how well I did it. By the end of the game, Cumae (my principle commerce city) was netting around 250 gold per turn. Rome was able to amass over 400 hammers per turn for military units, and around 150-200 per turn for buildings and stuff. Ravenna, my main science city, was giving around 250 beakers ( with Oxford and several scientists). Antium, my GP farm, was pumping out roughly 120-150 GP points per turn.

Are those numbers pretty good, average, or pretty bad? I was playing as Julius Caesar and Rome.

[gregh87]

That GP farm is a lot more than what I usually get. Were you running pacifism? I know the forum helps a lot. Oxford could be better, but it's not bad.

What size map do you play? If it's standard or bigger, I usually have a lot more money in my Wall Street city due to foreign corporation thread. I usually end up getting 750 to 1000 after the AI spams your executives in its cities.

Your military production city is very good. How was that achieved? Base production of 70 (mines and Mining Inc.) along with Heroic Epic, military academy, forge, factory, power, Ironworks, and Police State? I don't remember the value for all those multipliers, but I'm guessing that would be close to 400.

[Jimmyballz]

Originally Posted by Lexicus

Antium, my GP farm, was pumping out roughly 120-150 GP points per turn.

Are those numbers pretty good, average, or pretty bad? I was playing as Julius Caesar and Rome.

What size was Antium? For your GP farm, that is excellent.

I've been playing around heavily w GP farm cities lately(previous Cultural Victory I built more GA's than any other units), and 120-150 GP is very good from what I've seen. My best GP farm city had over 100 GP/turn, but it wasn't up to 150 iirc.

National Epic, Caste & Pacifism

[davidis.ca]

I am new in the SE and i have some similar questions.
1. Should i run bureaucracy and after i build important bulding in my Capital make it build science?
2.what is the average output of science,gold, hammers in the cities specialized on them?

[Kesshi]

Originally Posted by davidis.ca

I am new in the SE and i have some similar questions.
1. Should i run bureaucracy and after i build important bulding in my Capital make it build science?
2.what is the average output of science,gold, hammers in the cities specialized on them?

davidis.ca,

1) You should run Bureaucracy as soon as you get it! However, I am very war-like, and usually I build the +100% military production national wonder in a city with high production, then I plan on moving my palace there right before I learn Civil Service. This permits me to have a city with +175% (or 2.75times faster) military production!

Remember that Bureaucracy only increases hammers and Commerce NOT Science. Science != Commerce. Gold != Commerce, either. This makes the +commerce bonus from Bureaucracy fairly worthless to my playstyle. however if you have a lot of cottages in your SE empire, then it won't be as worthless to you. Regardless, because I build very few cottages I tend to ignore the fact that Bureaucracy gives any commerce bonus at all and I focus on the hammer bonus.

2) There is no average. Each city is...well...specialized! I've had size 4 cities producing over 40 science per turn pre alphabet That's a lot for such a small city so early on! With 3 of those you could learn most techs in only a few turns at that time in the game! Where as I've also had cities with tons of hammers but no science.

The key to a SE is to specialize. Don't waste time building buildings you don't need. For example, most of my gold tends to come from a shrined city. In the early game I build only one market (unless a city REALLY needs the happiness, usually not though), and later on only one grocer (ditto for health) and only one Bank. Eventually I'll build more Banks, but that's only to get Wall Street as eventually I can put myself at 100% science with a positive income. At 100% science, my extra banks are effectively worthless. Well, almost. Under a religious economy, I tend to focus on the Religious wonders: The AP, The Sistine Chapel, The Angkor Wat, and The Spiral Minaret. This means I'll be building at least 2 religious buildings in all of my cities (Temple and a Monestary.) And those buildings will be producing 2 gold each, or 4 gold total. The extra 50% from those few Banks net me 2 extra gold each!

Anyways, the key to a successful SE is to specialize. I don't waste time with building libraries in my military cities, because I want them working as many +production tiles as possible. So I don't build Libraries! I don't waste time with building +money buildings in science cities, because I want them working on as many +beaker specialists as possible. I don't waste time with building +science buildings in money cities, because I want them working as many +money specialists as possible.

Oh yeah! Please note that you can sometimes end up with a Science/Gold/Money/Great Person hybrid city by running a lot of Priest Specialists in a high food city due to +3 research per specialist and the hammer bonus to the Angkor Wat with a fair amount of settled Great Prophets (they produce more hammers, and quite a bit of gold, too!) If I know I'm going to be limited to a smaller empire, typically I'll try to make one city like that, too. However if I know I can expand to a huge empire I'll specialize individual cities for individual projects.

[Lexicus]

That GP farm is a lot more than what I usually get. Were you running pacifism? I know the forum helps a lot. Oxford could be better, but it's not bad.

What size map do you play? If it's standard or bigger, I usually have a lot more money in my Wall Street city due to foreign corporation thread. I usually end up getting 750 to 1000 after the AI spams your executives in its cities.

Your military production city is very good. How was that achieved? Base production of 70 (mines and Mining Inc.) along with Heroic Epic, military academy, forge, factory, power, Ironworks, and Police State? I don't remember the value for all those multipliers, but I'm guessing that would be close to 400.

I play on Huge maps every time. GP points at the end were 99, but I think the highest I ever had was around 134. Antium is size 27, has some flood plains, and I've mined a lot of the hills around it, so I have decent production. Antium has probably around 75% of the World Wonders in the game. I'm running Theocracy, Free Speech, Emancipation, Universal Suffrage, and State Property, so Corporations aren't there for me.

And my mistake, when I looked at Rome it had runoff from cash-rushing the Eiffel Tower from last turn, so it only looked like it had over 400 hammers. It actually has 78 base production. The end production is 295, due to bonuses from Heroic Epic, a Military Academy, a Factory, Power, and Forge. The real genius of it is I'm getting 17 exp--4 promotions--for each new unit built there. Barracks (+3), Theocracy (+2), The Pentagon, (+2), 3 Military Instructors (+6), and West Point (+4) for a total of +17 exp.

Cumae is probably kinda low because a little over a third of its BFC is water. As I said, I'm running State Property, so there's no corporations there. I don't really understand the connection between corporations and Wall Street--how the hell are you getting 750 gold per turn?

Arretium, my city with Iron Works, is my second-best production city, it can finish wonders faster than Rome at this point (although, as I said, most of the wonders in the game are in Antium to give it Great People points).

I have another lesser military city in the form of Seoul, captured from the Koreans, but most of my other cities are pretty good Commerce cities.

[davidis.ca]

Originally Posted by Kesshi

davidis.ca,

1) You should run Bureaucracy as soon as you get it! However, I am very war-like, and usually I build the +100% military production national wonder in a city with high production, then I plan on moving my palace there right before I learn Civil Service. This permits me to have a city with +175% (or 2.75times faster) military production!

Remember that Bureaucracy only increases hammers and Commerce NOT Science. Science != Commerce. Gold != Commerce, either. This makes the +commerce bonus from Bureaucracy fairly worthless to my playstyle. however if you have a lot of cottages in your SE empire, then it won't be as worthless to you. Regardless, because I build very few cottages I tend to ignore the fact that Bureaucracy gives any commerce bonus at all and I focus on the hammer bonus.

2) There is no average. Each city is...well...specialized! I've had size 4 cities producing over 40 science per turn pre alphabet That's a lot for such a small city so early on! With 3 of those you could learn most techs in only a few turns at that time in the game! Where as I've also had cities with tons of hammers but no science.

The key to a SE is to specialize. Don't waste time building buildings you don't need. For example, most of my gold tends to come from a shrined city. In the early game I build only one market (unless a city REALLY needs the happiness, usually not though), and later on only one grocer (ditto for health) and only one Bank. Eventually I'll build more Banks, but that's only to get Wall Street as eventually I can put myself at 100% science with a positive income. At 100% science, my extra banks are effectively worthless. Well, almost. Under a religious economy, I tend to focus on the Religious wonders: The AP, The Sistine Chapel, The Angkor Wat, and The Spiral Minaret. This means I'll be building at least 2 religious buildings in all of my cities (Temple and a Monestary.) And those buildings will be producing 2 gold each, or 4 gold total. The extra 50% from those few Banks net me 2 extra gold each!

Anyways, the key to a successful SE is to specialize. I don't waste time with building libraries in my military cities, because I want them working as many +production tiles as possible. So I don't build Libraries! I don't waste time with building +money buildings in science cities, because I want them working on as many +beaker specialists as possible. I don't waste time with building +science buildings in money cities, because I want them working as many +money specialists as possible.

Oh yeah! Please note that you can sometimes end up with a Science/Gold/Money/Great Person hybrid city by running a lot of Priest Specialists in a high food city due to +3 research per specialist and the hammer bonus to the Angkor Wat with a fair amount of settled Great Prophets (they produce more hammers, and quite a bit of gold, too!) If I know I'm going to be limited to a smaller empire, typically I'll try to make one city like that, too. However if I know I can expand to a huge empire I'll specialize individual cities for individual projects.

thanks that was really helpful btw my cities produce around 40 "beakers" pre alphabet and my capital usualy even more according to your pas im doing good

[gregh87]

Originally Posted by Lexicus

Cumae is probably kinda low because a little over a third of its BFC is water. As I said, I'm running State Property, so there's no corporations there. I don't really understand the connection between corporations and Wall Street--how the hell are you getting 750 gold per turn?

I think for every city your corporation is in, you get like 12 or 15 gold in your Wall Street City (I'm assuming you plant the corporate HQ in your Wall Street City). Spread your corp by seeding it to AI's, and they'll spread it throughout all their cities. Founding 2 corps in your Wall Street (my favorites are mining inc. and Cereal Mills, or Sushi if it's archipelago) and have both in 50 cities-easy on huge maps-1500 gold in that one city.

[Lexicus]

But I run State Property. So Wall Street acts like a sort of super-shrine for corporations?

[EmperorFool]

Originally Posted by Lexicus

But I run State Property. So Wall Street acts like a sort of super-shrine for corporations?

Wall Street gives +100% in the city, regardless of your civics. Running State Property only means that corporations in your cities have no effect and do not cost . However, unless I'm mistaken, any foreign cities that have your corporation (and don't also run State Property) still pay your headquarters city.

[fish_sticks]

Depending on you speed setting, getting your military city up to that many hammers is not always helpful. It will be slightly better if it a coastal city because Missle Cruisers and Battleships are expensive. At the rate you are you would probably continuously overflow production of land units so you will end up losing some of the hammers.

I usually build Heroic Epic in the 3rd or 4th ranked production city, as the wonder is cheap and it will actually make a huge difference in the number of units it can produce, usually taking 4-5 turns per unit (on epic) to mostly 2 turns.

Also, you have to make sure that you do not build the Heroic Epic where you want to build the late game wonders, which I used to make the mistake of doing.

[Lexicus]

Wall Street gives +100% in the city, regardless of your civics. Running State Property only means that corporations in your cities have no effect and do not cost . However, unless I'm mistaken, any foreign cities that have your corporation (and don't also run State Property) still pay your headquarters city.

I know that. But I usually run State Property because Workshops and Watermills are good to have in your production cities.
My civics are usually going to be Universal Suffrage/Representation, Free Speech, Emancipation, Free Religion, and State Property. I made an exception that game because Theocracy was giving me units with four promotions off the bat.

[Emac78]

I just finished a game where I was Carthage and I had the city of Akkad which I took from the Babylonians. Akkad had the Jewish shrine and I ended up founding three corporations there, Sid's Sushi, AlumCO, and the Jewelers. None of which compete against each other. I built Wall Street there and by the end of the game Akkad was making like over 1100 gold per turn. The entire continent was covered with my corporations except for those Incan bastards who ran state property until late into the game. I had 100% science and +500 gold per turn. It was really ridiculous. There was actually more to expand to on the other side of the world but Montezuma, Tokugawa, Shaka, and DeGaulle would not open their borders to me.

[Zink]

I just finished a game with the Dutch (standard size, fractual, normal speed, noble). I'm also practicing SE atm so i found this thread very interesting. I have/had no idea if i was doing well. My values with Representation, Free Speech, Emancipation, Environmentalism, Theocracy and sliders at 50/20/10:

Amsterdam 29 (GP+espionage+production): 110GP, 225 science, 313 espionage, 276 production
Masstricht: 27 (science city): 523 science, 146 production
Leiden 9 (production city): 245 production (National Park+Ironworks)
The Hague 27 (commerce city): 450 gold (1 shrine, 2 corps)

The numbers look OK i gather from this thread (commerce city could be better), still i only managed to win in 1999 and i was behind in tech for quite some time. CE seems easier to play...

[Stoney the I]

Leiden 9 (production city): 245 production (National Park+Ironworks)

you combined national park and ironworks? in a size 9 city no less?

*confused*

why did you do that?

[Zink]

Originally Posted by Stoney the I

you combined national park and ironworks? in a size 9 city no less?

*confused*

why did you do that?

My bigger cities either had too much or were producing enough hammers already (that was pre environmentalism). So thought the extra hammers from the free engineers add up with ironworks?

[Stoney the I]

not bad

you miss out on +50% production from coal though. national park takes that away.
i still wouldnt build national park in the ironworks city, no matter how many great engineers are in there, i think the +50% from coal is just too much bonus to give up.

[Zink]

Originally Posted by Stoney the I

you miss out on +50% production from coal though. national park takes that away.

Oh right, totally forgot that part

[quiddity]

I kind of aggree with the fact that some kind of buildings are useless in specialized cities. But there's always something wich is not working as intended when u play at a reasonnable difficulty level ( i mean from monarch to higher ).

from emperor, to be honest founding an early religioon is pretty difficult if u didnt had a VERY nice starting land ( with a lot of gold/silver/jewels ) and then founding a late religion would be a lot more difficult cause even if u rush it , u'll realize that u are so far from ur neighbor concerning the warmongering science that u'll can't face an incoming SoD ..

in this situation, without the incoming golds from a shrine, every gold or Beakers u could get is precious, even if u re running a specialized economy, and building a bank+marker+grocer+library in every city is not especially a waste, and some kind of a need.

the higher the difficulty level is, the more attention u have to give to every single city to get the much as u can. The truth is your starting tiles are more and more important, starting with golds/jewels is really overpowered with some corrects food tiles .