ALC Game #23: America/Lincoln

[mystyfly]

I didn't read all the posts (lazy me..) but I strongly advise not to axerush anyone. It doesn't look like they're that close and the easter part will be sealed off quickly with the copper city. I'd rather not get crushed by barbs and expand nicely instead of sacrificing your axes against the immortal AI. They're really hard to rush, especially when they're that far away. Also, maintenance will kill you...

IIRC immortal barbs start crossing borders ~2000BC so good luck That's why many players tech archery pretty soon btw Of course having so many AIs around does help there a bit...

[v8_mark]

I'm thinking that, as per Monsu's dotmap, rather than settle on the wine for Sis's 3rd city, that should be split in two. By settling on the plains hill (1S of the 2 in the post above) that city will have clams, wine and 3 floodplains. The other site, 1S of the wheat, could be used for any number of things - most likely a coastal commerce city. You could even cottage the plains (though I don't like doing this so much).

My only reservation about this map would be production, so having the most northerly of the split two cities as a production city makes sense I think.

In any case, quantity over quality seems to be the way forward on the higher levels. It'll certainly pay off medium-term with the extra commerce I think.

P.S. Welcome to CFC Monsu!

[kazapp]

I think those dotmaps space the cities too far apart. I think it's a mistake to plan for the modern age when we have more immediate problems... if we survive taking (half) the continent, I'm sure we can live with the inconvenience of not being able to make super-cities of them all...

You say there's desert to your west. But I see only two desert tiles, the rest are either hilled or flooded (and therefore not as useless).

Assuming you are indeed surrounded by the Incans and the Aztecs you must prepare for war... Don't listen to the peacemongers - appeasement won't work with Montezuma!

Depending on HC's capital (if it's hilled or not, how many Archers he keeps around) I'd plan my war slightly differently. If it's on flatland, build 6-8 Axemen ASAP and just go take it. Otherwise, send out units to prowl his surroundings. Try catching his first Settler (and its escort) - the bestest "worker"-stealing there is. Perhaps you can time it so you catch a regular Worker at the same time.

Then don't accept peace. Keeping HC on a wartime footing should do wonders to keep him from running away in research... and it allows you to park an Axeman on top of any Iron of his (thus eliminating any risk of repeating the Swordsmen vs Crossbows scenario )

Obviously, taking the capital quickly is better, because you will very soon have to contend with the Aztec... and if he's your only neighbor to the west (don't know, but I got this impression) you're the only one Mad Monty can backstab...

[patagonia]

There are many examples of BtS Immortal level axe-rushing in the Immortal University threads, so they're worth checking out if you're looking for any tips.

It makes sense to smack Huayna soon as he's very close, a culture beast with the terrace and will become a serious pain later. Monty and Hatty are likely to despise each other so provided you give in to whatever early tribute demand he makes, he's more likely to target her initially than you. If that's the case, it'll be a help in slowing the rest of the continent down while you execute your own rush.

I think settling on copper is the perfect solution to the food situation you've got. It also means faster axes and means New York can start working improved tiles immediately by borrowing corn from Washington.

You'll want to bring quite a few units to the Cuzco party (if it's a holy city on a hill, I'd want 10-12 chopped/whipped ASAP) and I'd aim to get writing first to scout out his lands. Immortal AIs tend to get IW at 1500-1000BC so keep an eye out for any plains/grassland mines when you do so. It's debatable whether settling a 3rd city pre-rush will help you strike any faster, but settling on wines is the strongest additional spot you've uncovered so far.

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An alternative approach is the one adopted by ABigCivFan in the Charlemagne IU thread. That'd involve settling on copper, wines and a floodplain city (for a total of 4), grabbing IW very quickly to start working those gems and leveraging that commerce to beeline construction for cats before going to war. That turned out to be very strong play, but had a faster buildup than you'd have here because he was able to grab gold mines rather than needing IW to free the gems.

[madscientist]

I will not be giving much advice here this game as I shadowed it and know what to expect. I gave up though because I have a very hard time adjusting back down to epic and frankly I suck at Immortal.

I will say though that settling ontop of the copper get's you an unpillagable metal resource, provides both gems, provides cows, and allows you to time-share the corn and one clam. You lose the ability to actually work the copper, but then again are you really going to be able to work it with such limited food. Settle on the copper.

[Daedal]

Settle on the copper! Settling north of the lake means you'll need an extra 10 turns (mine + desert road) to access the copper. That's 2/3 of an epic whip cycle, not to mention the time lost slow building or chopping axes in your 2 cities. So settling the 'ideal' city basically costs you 3 early axemen. Not worth it. HC should fall quickly with an axe stack, then turn it around and head for Monty...

[shyuhe]

I would settle on the copper regardless of whether you plan on axe rushing HC. It will get you 2 gems with IW and get you a needed strategic resource. The downside to that location is that it's quite hammer poor. Washington isn't exactly a production powerhouse so you're going to have to use the whip a lot here. I would try juggling the corn tile between the two cities as needed to maximize growth and whipping opportunities.

[civ4legs]

Absolutely settle on the copper, and do it asap. It is too bad that it doesn't cut off the continent like being 1 tile north, but having cows in the BFC is great. It can also time share the corn and clams, which is very nice. This will be a powerful city.

I would love to see an axe rush in action; I haven't pulled one of those since I moved up to Monarch I don't think, and I don't think the situations get much better for it than this, although if we could see a bit more of HC's land it would be nice: if he's really constricted, it might be nice to let him build us some stuff before we go take it. That would let us REX to the west a little bit.

As for Sis' #2, my initial response was to put it where he had it (off the river). I still don't get why people get so worked up about the unhealthiness from flood plains: except in extreme examples (which would not be the case here), the extra food from working the FPs will match the food lost to pollution, so worst case it's the same as grasslands. This would make a gorgeous commerce city.

The only thing that would bring me around to putting it on the river is for levies down the road, but that's WAY down the road, so I will still go with putting it on the plains 1 tile away from the river.

[huerfanista]

Originally Posted by PanzerEric

Sis, I like city #1 right on top of the copper. However make your next city after that HC's (former) capitol! At that point you'll have 3 cities, two of them which are capitol cites.

In other words a very early whip/chop axe rush on HC's capitol, plus sneak in a settler chop for another city west of copper city to block Monty will set you up very nicely early game.

I'm guessing a six axe sneak attack on HC will do the job. Try to scout to see if his capitol is on a hill or flatland. If flatland your in the money, if hill then add 2 axe to your original stack. If you attack early enough you might get him before his capitol expands to the third ring (although I doubt it).

The corn/clams from the capital will make this city grow like crazy, and you'll save at least 10 turns in mining/roading the copper (don't remember the worker turns for epic - maybe 6 for mining and 4 for the road?). The best axe rush is the earliest one (as someone once said: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=244075 ).

[johnny_rico]

I'd also agree with settling on the copper. 'Getting it now' certainly seems to be the way to go. On a lot of the immortal/deity walkthroughs, I've noticed players settle on resources to get the bonus immediately (be it strategic, happy, or healthy) due to low happy/health caps or not being able to afford to the time to get the extra worker to build the roads and mine a strategic resource. I imagine this stems from the AI having an enormous advantage out of the gate. The sooner you narrow that gap, the better, and having a second capital city in the BC's will certainly aid in leveraging early goals. Once HC is down, scout some more and figure out a plot of land you can block off the AIs from settling.

But, I don't play immortal, I play monarch/emperor and life is certainly easier on those levels in the early game - a lot more breathing room.

I think you're off to a good start though. Good land, tough neighbors, and a solid peanut gallery to offer up options.

One last piece of advice, I wouldn't hesitate to do some tile sharing with your early cities (we're already seeing that if you settle on the copper). With the low cap, you won't be able to work all the 'good' tiles in each city's BFC but with sharing you can work all the best tiles in your turf. You might also save a little cash in lower maintenance.

[Kev]

I would prefer to see what extra land HC might have to the east before settling the copper city - if that would be possible. If there is not too much out that way, then settling one tile north of the lake or one tile north of the copper will block HC (after border pop) for a decent amount of time so long as you keep borders closed. Should that be the case, then I don't see a huge impetus to take him out quickly:

1. He founded a religion, and it should be able to spread to your cities quicker making for some nice relations should you go with it.
2. He is industrious, and I'd love for him to cobble a few wonders together before you take his cities.
3. With a shared religion, he's more likely to be a trade partner compared to Monty the nut.
4. Never know if he might be kind enough to shrine the Holy City.

Again, this assumes you can cut him off well enough - though he'll likely be able to utilize the galley end-around soon enough. While he's a tech-whore to be sure, with limited land you should be fine and be able to take him out at your leisure.

Having Monty close scares me more.

[Babibo]

In a situation like this (lots of civilizations nearby, and not enough land to develop pacifically), I'd consider axe rushing as soon as possible. Maybe Huayna doesn't have copper yet ? So :
- settle on the copper
- do not found any other city. Concentrate on the axes
- use the whip
- try to know as soon as possible if huayna's cities are on hills (but since he founded taoism, I guess you won't be able to get close enough)
- try to steal a worker. Stealing a worker to an AI considerably weakens him.

By the way, barbarians enter city borders around 2500 - 2000 BC at this level.

After you have taken out Huayna's cities, settle the flood plains, and you have a won game.

[whakamole]

I hope you're able to get that copper city. With its close proximity to HC, it could be easy for him to send out a settler stack to claim it before you get yours out of the gate - especially if HC is boxed in on a peninsula to the east. I'm just guessing from his score that he only has the one city, so he's about ready to expand - and this scenario could easily happen.

You should probably have some contingency plan in the works as your settler is being built, just in case. Researching AH will only help if there are horses nearby, but it's more of a sure thing to go Hunting --> Archery to protect yourself against barbs in case that copper goes bye-bye.

I normally don't play so conservatively, but this IS Immortal.

[DMOC]

Settle on the copper city - with luck, you'll get it before Huayna.

[Dr. Eszterhazy]

Rather than putting two cities in the south, I would occupy the peninsula with just one city placed two squares south of the square between the wheat and the pig. This gives you the wheat, pig, and deer for food and a plains hill and two tundra hills for hammers. When your capital hits 60 percent culture (which might just be around the time that you are discovering Calender), you can claim the spices if you don’t have another source of spices by then. To avoid unnecessary maintenance costs, save that second city that you could have fit in the south for a better spot somewhere else, which I am sure you will find since you are intending to do an early rush.

[Artichoker]

I looked at the map, and I agree that settling directly on the Copper is the best way to grab that resource.

[Sisiutil]

Originally Posted by mystyfly

I didn't read all the posts (lazy me..) but I strongly advise not to axerush anyone. It doesn't look like they're that close and the easter part will be sealed off quickly with the copper city. I'd rather not get crushed by barbs and expand nicely instead of sacrificing your axes against the immortal AI. They're really hard to rush, especially when they're that far away. Also, maintenance will kill you...

IIRC immortal barbs start crossing borders ~2000BC so good luck That's why many players tech archery pretty soon btw Of course having so many AIs around does help there a bit...

Check the save, not the map; Huayna is incredibly close and therefore a good rush target. Captured capitals, especially holy cities, always pay for themselves.

As for Archery, yes, BW was a bit of a gamble and I'm lucky it paid off. Given how astonishingly early the barb military units are showing up, I think in future immortal games I'll pursue Archery right off the bat.

[Bandobras Took]

Originally Posted by Sisiutil

As for Archery, yes, BW was a bit of a gamble and I'm lucky it paid off. Given how astonishingly early the barb military units are showing up, I think in future immortal games I'll pursue Archery right off the bat.

Would Protective thereby go up in your estimation slightly?

[madscientist]

By the time you tech hunting/archery you can have the second city built, teched the wheel, and connected the two cities via a road. I am one of the biggest fans of archery but in this case I think it's not the best option.

[Sisiutil]

Originally Posted by Bandobras Took

Would Protective thereby go up in your estimation slightly?

On Immortal and higher? Probably, yes.

Originally Posted by madscientist

By the time you tech hunting/archery you can have the second city built, teched the wheel, and connected the two cities via a road. I am one of the biggest fans of archery but in this case I think it's not the best option.

Oh, I agree on this map that Archery is not a high priority. But imagine if there'd been no copper nearby. I think I took a bigger gamble going after BW first than I realized.