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#1 |
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Noble Pacifist
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Erie County, New York
Posts: 915
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I have learned to love cottages
I always used to hate them, but I've been having A LOT of really successful CE games recently. Including my recent Alexander game, which is my highest scoring game. (well, second highest, but the number one score was a glitch so it doesn't count)
(Recap of said Alexander game) Spoiler:
But I am addicted to cottages now. I cottage spam everything. I mostly play Financial leaders. At least it's better then SE/Pyramids addiction. ![]() I have a few questions though. 1. Is cottaging plains okay? Or is it better to workshop them? 2. What about cottaging hills? Is this recommended, or just use them for production? 3. Cottaging tundra is pretty much the only thing to do with Tundra, right? 4. Floodplains, cottage them or farm them? 5. Is Financial really that important for the CE? Because I love Industrious but I don't want to always play as Huayna Capac ![]() 6. When to switch to Universal Suffrage? Is it the extra hammer really worth it? Over the extra science and happiness (Representation) or the nearly limitless happiness of Hereditary Rule? 7. In the mid/early late game, Bureaucracy boosted cottage capital or Free Speech? Thanks to the Cottage masters in advance
Last edited by NintendoTogepi; Jul 03, 2008 at 10:10 AM. |
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#2 |
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Warlord
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 243
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financial = most powerful trait
![]() you could do both CE and SE+Pyramid (hybrid economy), best result with Elizabeth hybrid economy is very solid, insane commerce+ a lot GP = win you actually dont need so many mines, i never build workshops forest chop+ slavery will do the job food resource is the most important thing ever huayna capac is indeed very addicting his UB gives him creative trait (because you granary is a building you always build) you can also try Darius (Fin/Org) with +2 health UB generally, representation is better than US until very late game later on after cristo redentor, you can switch back and forth betweem representation and US every turn |
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#3 |
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Bureaucrat
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Bethesda, MD
Posts: 262
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It's certainly "okay" to cottage plains and hills, but, as with any non-resource terrain improvement, it all depends on what else the city is doing. If it's a pure commerce city (i.e., Oxford U. or Wall Street*), you want to put cottages everywhere you can feed them. In other cities, though, you can afford to mix-and-match so that you get the blend of growth, commerce, and production that you want in that particular town. The same goes for floodplains.
IMO, Financial is a very nice bonus for a CE, but it is by no means necessary. It boosts your commerce, but does have hidden hammer costs in that it provides no discounted buildings. As for #6-7, it depends on your situation. For US, count your Towns and see how much you'll benefit. Large empires do better under FS; smaller empires under Bureau. * Note: depending on your gold/beaker slider, it might be better to put Wall St. in a specialist city, even when your civics are all CE-themed. |
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#4 | |
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RPC Supergenius
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: New York City
Posts: 6,927
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2) I never cottage a hill unless playing an RPC where I am trying to prove a point ![]() 3) I either watermill or lumbermill tundra. Sometimes cottage, sometimes farm. 4) 90% of the time I cottage there, but there are times I farm or watermill them. 5) CE works with anybody, just like financial helps any type of economy. 6) US is a tough one. Given cottaged cities produce little production, I say it's required especially if you have well rivered cities. Also at that stage of the game you have more problem with unhealthiness from factories/power than happiness. With a strong CE I will try my best to get US up. Also the electricity/radio/Mass Media trifecta comes into play. 7) Buracracy if you have a small empire looking for a space/culture/diplo win, FS if you have a very large expansive empire. A cottaged capital with Bureacracy/Academy/Oxford can our beaker alot of other cities. But more often than not I am in FS near the end as long as I do not have to get those favorite civic diplo points.
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Mad's Civ IV RPC Series Summary threads: Classic RPC Series, Open RPC Series, The Next Generation RPC Series, MAd's World Mod Summary Current RPC CiV IV: Rockefeller, American Corporate Power! This poster apologizes for all spelling errors, he is a bit older and typing is a post-education acqusition tech! |
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#5 |
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Have quit civ/forums
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Norway
Posts: 6,601
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It is quite easy to do the calculations on when to swich from burrecracy to free speech if you are just looking at beakers as this is pure aritmethics... I hardly work thundra so i dunno... Mostly any cities up in the thundra just work the food titles and rest specialists / non thundra titles, with the expection being thundra mines which is sometimes worthwhile... In commerce cities you certanly want to cottage hills and cottaging plains is pretty obvious in production cities.. Workshops rocks, but not in commerce cities, althouhg if you are at the point in the game where workshops are great you might be better off just workshop / watermill / windmill everything as this gives quite some commerce output(at least with electricity and/or evenviromentalism) and unmatched production which doesn't take time to come into effect.. I very seldom go into US as most of the time Hr is so much better it is not funny, exception is extreme late game where i just captured a ton of land and hence enough happy resources to make all my cities happy upon which it is quite obviously good to just go into US...
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#6 |
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Deity
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 5,707
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The thing about cottages (I'm not opposed to them, I cottage a lot currently) is that if you work too many too soon across the total of your empire then your production will be really low and you will have problems expanding horizontally. I usually start cottaging hard AFTER my first wave of expansion. Prior to that, it is all about the production for me.
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Land is power. Land is power. Land is power. Monarch Specialist Economy Walkthrough 1 Monarch Specialist Economy Walkthrough 2 |
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#7 |
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Knight of Cydonia
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CH
Posts: 3,668
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1. Definitely okay. Do you really want to wait until your workshop finally produce some serious hammers?
2. I say yes. Yield-wise, grass hill (you can't cottage other hills) = flat plains. 3. Tundra is generally foodpoor so farms might help. 4. In your 0815 science city, cottage them, otherwise: GPfarm, farm it, Production, watermill. 5. I wouldn't say so. Also I clearly disagree that financial is the strongest trait. I rate spiritual and creative higher, but I also don't play on noble. In the higher levels, you need diplomacy (>spiritual) rather than though-looking defenders to stay alive and you have lots of problems keeping your BFC under control and the city sites are hard to get (>creative). 6. When you have happiness issues, HR, otherwise US. Rep isn't that much of a blast if only 1 or 2 cities are running specs. 7. Buero vs FS is situational and pretty easy to see. Lots of matured cottages, big empire = FS, ubercapital, small empire = buero.
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!SGOTM 11 Team One Short Straw Current SGs: No happy people![]() Previous SGs: Short Fun Game | Immortal slavers! | RR2 | UNGY-05 | RR1 | UNGY-04 | Fox-40 | Vra-04 | Qu01 (.5) | AA04 | LK146 | UNGY-03 | ICS 04 | BUG Hunting | Fox-30 | PH13 | ICS 03 | UNGY-02 | AA03 | WnH01 | ICS 02 | UNGY-01 | AA02 | My final huzzah | LK143 | ICS 01 |
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#8 | |
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King
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Detroit, MI, USA
Posts: 823
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Quote:
![]() That said, you make a good point. My typical start involves "over"-expanding and running my slider down while sealing off good land, then running as many scientists as I can in more food-heavy locations (and even in food poor locations, if I really need to..) while still working cottages (Any city with 2 flood plains is excellent for this, as it can do both) in other places, especially the capital. |
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#9 | |
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Warlord
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 243
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Quote:
civic upkeep costs more, technologies cost more beakers, and AI gain tech bonus creative is only strong early game, but it becomes a non factor trait quickly, after you build stonehenge, or after you discover CoL as well, spiritual spiritual is no doubt a very strong trait, however, it is nearly useless early game as well, it depends on your location on map (starting location, neighbours, etc) late game, you can build cristo redentor, you can also change civic without penalty during golden age financial on the otherside is a very useful trait in all situations |
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#10 |
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Deity
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Upstate, NY
Posts: 2,568
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I am going to troll a bit and suggest you try playing above Noble before you make such broad judgments of certain traits. As you go up the difficulty, there are many traits that get better and better, and some get worse.
As for CRE only being useful early game, I disagree. Later, especially while taking enemy cities, its more about the discount buildings than the 2 culture. Also, at higher levels, Stonehenge becomes a VERY situational wonder, instead of a "nearly every game". I do agree you get the MOST bang for the buck from that trait early, since those Monument hammers are better spent on a cheap Library or another unit, but many a game are won or lost based on how strongly you start, and CRE really helps you grab land, seal choke-points, etc etc. SPI is similar, at lower levels, anarchy is far less punishing, but at higher difficulties, it becomes pretty painful, especially multiple turns of it. Also, at higher levels, the civics you run are a bit more critical, you need those +2 XP from Theo even more, for example, and nothing beats the ability to switch to Nationalism right away if you get DoWed. Being able to switch around powerful civics like Pacifism, OR, Slavery or Caste, etc etc, is pretty strong at the higher difficulties. .
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Brute Force: If its not working, you're just not using enough. |
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#11 |
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Just this guy, ya know?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: NYC
Posts: 3,322
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A cottage thread that's been up for nearly nine hours without a DaveMcW post? Has anyone called to make sure he's okay? (Sorry, I can't help it, I'm a wise ass).
![]() Anyway, it depends on what you want to do with the city. Cottages are critical for all civs, especially non-financial ones, but hammers are almost always in short supply in the early game and you need to take advantage of the resources availible. Example: Floodplains you'll almost always cottage, but if you've only got two flood plains tiles and a few gold plains/desert hills, you're going to want to farm them; it's situational. DaveMcW is the cottage guru and he had a post in a previous thread that was elegant in its simplicity. I've got to run but if he hasn't chimed in himself, or if someone else hasn't posted it first, I'll dig it up and pass it along. Also, don't neglect FutureHermit's sig, Land IS Power; having the room (and hammers elsewhere) to plant several cities with 15-20 tiles of cottages is a huge advantage.
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*PAIN IS WEAKNESS LEAVING THE BODY, OR TOKUGAWA WITH RIFLES AND IN YOUR WAY* *WHEN THE TOUGH GET GOING, THE WEAK GET SCREWED* Economic Left/Right: 1.50 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.18 |
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#12 | ||||||||||
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Emperor
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 1,325
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- Lots of towns - usually around the time you switch to free speech. - A need to cash rush a lot of buildings - eg you have just expanded onto some islands. - You have enough happy resources and buildings that you can afford the loss of HR. Since you are running a CE you will not bother with the weak substitute that is Representation. Your choices are HR (early game for massive cities running many cottages) and US (for game dominating late game production). Quote:
Late mid game - nationalism (when you get rifling! don't underrate what this civic can do for your costs and happiness too). Late game - free speech. Count the towns to find out when to switch. Usually once you get 3-5 cities that look like your capital and are surrounded by towns its time to switch. Quote:
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- It helps you very little in the early game which is where small advantages can multiply. - Its "emergency" use is not as good as it used to be relative to other traits because a saved GP can give you an instant golden age and free civic switching in an emergency. But it does have a huge advantage for higher level play that you haven't mentioned and thats its diplomatic advantages. Its not in the top 3 for me (FIN, PHI, IND) but its close. |
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#13 | |
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Warlord
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 243
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Quote:
CRE becomes obsolete once you discover CoL, which is an early tech there is no discussion there, in fact i never build stonehenge (because of hammer's cost, better for worker/settler) SPI is a strong trait no doubt, however how often do you change civic early game? twice? or maybe 3 times? 1 turn anarchy each SPI is very strong at mid game (medieval-industrial era), where diplomacy is very important to keep out warring but you know, to have a good game, you should keep hanging around with same people, so basically you dont have to change religion (or civics) so often anymore, once you found your friends since BTS, the late game anarchy problem (which was the reason why SPI is being considered as a very strong trait in vanilla) can be solved completely by building Cristo Redentor FIN is a very powerful trait, simply because almost everything in this game are based on commerce science, culture, espionage, even production FIN starts very strong, and remains strong through the game until end game it allows you since the very beginning to research faster (especially coastal start) in early game, if you work 6X2C tiles, you get 18C instead of 12C (50% more, i think we need no discussion here) at late game, you can work 20X9C ties, you get 200C instead of 180C (11% more), less meaningful? true, but we get bank (+50%), market (+25%) and grocer (+25%) these buildings amplify FIN trait even more, so it stays powerful at late game |
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#14 |
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GiftOfNukes
![]() Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Orlando
Posts: 19,881
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IMO the cheap libraries and convenient border pop speed are the primary draws of CRE - particularly the libraries. THAT's where the early advantage lies. You can 2 pop whip them as soon as you have ANY hammers invested, or just build them without any trouble at all. Early scientists are indeed a worthy boost - and CRE will get them sooner than anybody.
Not a top tier trait IMO but not horrible. It's pretty fun to stuff border pops in the AI's face too.
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- There is no "I" in team. There is no "we" either. There is a me. - Play Faster! - YouTube Civ Walkthroughs and Map Creation! - PolyCast Co-Host! Listen in! - Watch me play LIVE |
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#15 |
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Ursine Skald
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Foraging in your trashcan
Posts: 1,656
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I too will invoke the name of Dave (genuflecting as I type this) and speak to thee of cottages, my son.
As the McWonder states, a mix of cottages and farms is great early on for some growth and whipability. But don't assume that ALL cities have to go CE just because you are a spamming fool in some of your cities. Sometimes you will have land that is crap for cottages but great for mining/production or food generation. Try to figure out what each city's best use is given your needs, the map, your civ, and the phase of the game, and don't be afraid to change midstream. |
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#16 |
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Knight of Cydonia
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CH
Posts: 3,668
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Really, about 3 people write about spiritual trait and one mentionnes diplomacy... Does anyone care about diplomacy here? Or do you usually have an army big enought to prevent you from being attacked. I must say I generally haven't as my opponents have stacks of 50+ units very early and I can't keep up there. I mentionned in my first post here that this is on higher levels, immortal and deity.
Another thing is warring, where spi really shines. Make a 5-turn switch into theocracy and unload your built up queues, switch back to pac/OR. Repeat. Creative (fast theatres and coliseums) also helps warring enormeously as you have your buildings up very fast and can build units again quickly.On these levels you get crushed by barbs VERY easily so hooking up copper fast is vital often. And do you really want a) risk losing a city because you have to wait 20 turns (normal speed) to get your border pop or b) settle a mediocre city site and have a craptown for the rest of the game because you need copper available?? Also, I'd like to see you box in AIs effectively without creative. And it really sucks if your BFC consists of 15 tiles because your neighbor snatchet the other 5.
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!SGOTM 11 Team One Short Straw Current SGs: No happy people![]() Previous SGs: Short Fun Game | Immortal slavers! | RR2 | UNGY-05 | RR1 | UNGY-04 | Fox-40 | Vra-04 | Qu01 (.5) | AA04 | LK146 | UNGY-03 | ICS 04 | BUG Hunting | Fox-30 | PH13 | ICS 03 | UNGY-02 | AA03 | WnH01 | ICS 02 | UNGY-01 | AA02 | My final huzzah | LK143 | ICS 01 |
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#17 |
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GiftOfNukes
![]() Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Orlando
Posts: 19,881
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Barb defense is highly situational - I often fogbust with only warriors on emperor (and the few immortal games i've gone through) without trouble. In these games however, there is so much "outsourced" fogbusting via the AI (especially as the AI expands very rapidly
) that it doesn't take a ton of warriors. In isolation or with more room/forests it's a different story - barb defense becomes essential though I tend to favor archery as it's a guaranteed access to a unit and archers will generally do the job nicely if set up properly. Unless you're unlucky and lose >90% battles, but you can lose those with any type of unit.The border pops are a very good point for a pure walling off approach - again quite situational. Very close AI + access to copper often = axe rush anyhow, and then culture of yours matters much less than the ability to wade through the AI cities. Starting near a peaceful AI and having the ability to wall it off could be nice and winning culture border wars is always nice, but the cheap libraries seal the deal for me with creative (that and the ability to use CITIES to fogbust easily). I don't think you'll find many people saying creative is useless or weak - it isn't. It just isn't a top tier trait. Spiritual is really nice for a number of reasons. I felt the diplomacy bonus of conceding to civic/religion swaps and back went without saying but it's a good point. Civic swap abuse is, of course, encouraged and while it's difficult to estimate exactly how much this is worth vs strategic swaps of other traits it has the potential to be quite powerful IMO.
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- There is no "I" in team. There is no "we" either. There is a me. - Play Faster! - YouTube Civ Walkthroughs and Map Creation! - PolyCast Co-Host! Listen in! - Watch me play LIVE |
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#18 | |
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Deity
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 5,707
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Quote:
__________________
Land is power. Land is power. Land is power. Monarch Specialist Economy Walkthrough 1 Monarch Specialist Economy Walkthrough 2 |
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#19 | ||
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Deity
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Upstate, NY
Posts: 2,568
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My bad then, much of your advice seems "noble oriented", phrases like "obsolete after you build stonehenge" led me to believe you build it often, something most Emp+ players do rarely.
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I am not questioning the strength of FIN, its a very strong trait indeed. But as I said in the first post, there are many traits that are stronger as you go up in difficulty, and many that get less useful as you go up in difficulty. You say you play Emperor, is HC you most-used leader? Heh, that would explain a lot actually.
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Brute Force: If its not working, you're just not using enough. |
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#20 |
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Deity Whipping Boy
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Germany
Posts: 3,123
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1.) Cottage plains (if you can work them. If you can't... do whatever you want with them). Workshops suck before State Property, and you'll have mostly mature towns until then; Towns + civics > Workshops + civics. If you end up rush-buying, you don't even need to compromise your health with factories and anything after them.
2.) In the early game, you will want to mine them. Cottage cities don't regrow too well from whipping and wish to grow to the maximum size, so flatlands get priority for cottage growth; at the same time you want to be able to build important infrastructure as needed. In the late game, with a food corporation, you want to cottage anything that can be cottaged. 3.) Cottage! 4.) Cottage! Farms there tend to be overkill, especially in the light of possible health constraints. 5.) FIN + cottages might be the most powerful synergy in the game. You definitely lose out if you don't use it. In the lategame, Total Cottage Spam beats any other economy though (question is whether winning normally is faster than going broken), so if you feel like another leader would work well while still in the early game, fire away. 6.) If starved for luxuries, Heriditary rule might be necessary; should be easy to see if that's the case. Representation depends on your plan with Great People; if you're settling or growing some GSs for academies/bulbing it is often a good choice. On the whole, you don't really rely on any given government civic in the early game; Pyramids are strictly optional. 7.) I tend towards a super capital with every non-artist-producing wonder in the world with oodles of settled GPs. Bureaucracy is often a superior choice until I'm ready to ponder the domination limit. If the game lasts that long, a food corporation pretty much means Free Speech.
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You can't spell 'analysis' without 'anal'. |
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