Change Setup?

[civplayah]

Do you want to keep the Faction System or change to the Traditional System?

[Vandal Warlord]

Yes, the traditonal system is a little boring.

[thecommonnate]

I really enjoy the faction system, but what was the traditional system?

[Provolution]

The traditional system was what killed a long series of prior games. Someone tried to snuff out Factions system though, which explains the sudden death due to tear and wear.

I voted factions again, gives the game more personality than the American Civics Lego structure of Traditional.

[ravensfire]

Originally Posted by Provolution

The traditional system was what killed a long series of prior games. Someone tried to snuff out Factions system though,

Triad.

-- Ravensfire

[Joe Harker]

The traditional system was what killed a long series of prior games.

Well the faction system hasn't done any better.

[Provolution]

Well, its hard to beat several years of established truth, especially with the fierce opposition factions had from the outset. It took a year to get it voted for, after more exclusion of the idea than inclusion.

[Cyc]

Originally Posted by Provolution

Well, its hard to beat several years of established truth, especially with the fierce opposition factions had from the outset. It took a year to get it voted for, after more exclusion of the idea than inclusion.

Provolution, I will say I am proud of you for getting the faction system up and running. I never thought it would come about as a mainstay. But you did it. I can see why you would be fiercely opposed to the traditional system.

Personally, I never found anything wrong with the "traditional" system. It worked just fine for me and a lot of the others for seven games. And no, ...it was almost as good as sex, but not quite.

[Provolution]

Thank you Cyc for your understanding. As some of us has said earlier, Factions represent a more historic approach to the formation of new states from stone age to now, whereas "Traditional" was loosely based on American Civics 101, which explains those games more tabloid and highly legalistic approach to the game.

[ravensfire]

Originally Posted by Joe Harker

Well the faction system hasn't done any better.

Nope - it's actually killed a game faster than anything else, including our lovely experience with organized fraud.

-- Ravensfire

[fed1943]

Then, may be the problem is something that came before with all these games.

I think it is the mix of RPG into the games, like governors and owners of cities
or tiles with independent command over parts of the game, leading to wrong,
absurd decisions, and ruining the game, until the point where there is no game,
just a roleplay of nothing.

Best regards,

[Cyc]

Well....

The RPGing started in CIVIII DG1 and remained fairly strong through DG5. True, some players do not like to write stories and some players are not well spoken in the English language. Bu no one is required to RPG. No one was ever required to RPG. (Getting a land tile is RPGing.) That's the beauty of the RPG. You're only involved if you want to be and it's all virtual.

Two things about Factions. 1. I'm not sure if it was the faction system that brought down this game in the beginning or the people involved in that faction. With different people with different standards, it may have worked, dunno. 2. In response to Provo's statement about the difference between the two systems - The Traditional system is just a more developed Factional system. Ya got a Leader, ya got his/hers high ranking henchmen, and ya go the rest of the players. One has monthly elections, one has revolutions. There's not that much difference.

[thecommonnate]

What if a faction held monthly elections?

Not trying to be a smart ass, but I've seriously wondered if thats the way it will work when we get representation or universal suffrage. I thought there might be a answer by the time we get there, but IO guess this "system" is fairly new. But if that is the way it works, it feels a lot better then a regular system. With more people it could even evolve into inter faction factions...

[Cyc]

Originally Posted by thecommonnate

What if a faction held monthly elections?

Well then it would look more like a Traditional System.

Not trying to be a smart ass, but I've seriously wondered if thats the way it will work when we get representation or universal suffrage. I thought there might be a answer by the time we get there, but IO guess this "system" is fairly new. But if that is the way it works, it feels a lot better then a regular system. With more people it could even evolve into inter faction factions...

You're right about the first part, I think. Provolution would know better than I. When new forms of government are brought about via the tech tree, a faction may chose to use that form of government and revolt/win election as new Prime Faction.

I guess the tricky part would be if the Leader of that faction would appoint your representative or if you would elect that person.

One thing that bothers me about the Faction System (especially with a small number of players) is that it separates the common group into competing groups. Therefore is everyone involved in running the government? civplayah's faction has a unique idea concerning this. But that seems to drift away from the Faction System idea.

I don't really understand inter faction factions, tho.

[fed1943]

Cyc: Please let me try to explain.
When I said "RPG into the games" I didn't want to take a position against RPG.
RPG is a good thing and, more important, can never be bad.
Bad is the "into" part, that is, the game itself be played not by game reasons,
but by RPG reasons.
For instance:
The Triad had to split the first three cities among its three Factions and each
one has its own goals for his city, according to the name of the Faction, paying no heed to the game itself.
Each Governor ( I was one of them) ruled his cities without knowing the strategic decisions of the other Governors, researchers, Warlords, Leader.
And so on.
The final result is a boring game, weaker than the weakest of its players; and it should be the opposite, stronger than the strongest of its players.
And when I said boring it is not just my opinion; it is also yours because you
did not finish the game.
Well, I do hope I didn't say something unpleasant; if I did,believe me, it's just
my poor English knowledge.
My best regards,

[Cyc]

Don't worry about your English, fed1943. It's fine. I enjoy reading your posts. I'm glad you gave me this additional info. I had gotten bored and wandered off before the game got to the point you speak of.

I now understand better what you meant and no, I did not take offense.

[thecommonnate]

Inner faction factions meaning something like a political party.

[ice2k4]

The traditional system was what killed a long series of prior games. Someone tried to snuff out Factions system though, which explains the sudden death due to tear and wear.

I voted factions again, gives the game more personality than the American Civics Lego structure of Traditional.

Please don't make such outlandish comments, especially when I don't recall you being around for past demogames. Firstly, besides the fact that you can easily argue that it was quite a few other things that killed the past demogames, this isn't a personal war anyone is waging on you. Noone tried to "snuff out" the faction system. If someone disagreed with it, they acted democratically and tried to persuade others to see their point. Let's not use misleading language.

Secondly, how did this person (referring to the one who tried to "snuff out" said faction system) cause all this wear and tear which has caused the slowing of this game. If anything has caused this game to slow down, it's summer. People like to get out and do not devote as much time to this game as they normally would (I know this is surely my case.)

I also feel that the faction system has contributed to the games downfall much more than the traditional system ever had. With the faction system theres only one big election, and it's usually clear cut who is going to win. They're basically political parties as your not voting for different candidates. Your being forced to elect all officials of only one party by proxy. Atleast with the traditional system, elections were more fun and the game wasn't run on the party's time. It was run on the people's time. With the factions, they can really play a save whenever they want (correct me if I'm wrong) and this has caused considerable interests drops. There are also many players who like smaller jobs in government, such as governors. This allows people to get involved without having to take the work load of let's say a domestic adviser.

[Cyc]

Provolution was definitely in CIV III DG5 as a major component. One time his analysis of the DG had me laughing so hard, and I couldn't stop. I'm pretty sure he's contributed to others also.

But I agree with the rest of your comments ice2k4.

[Provolution]

which analysis was that, give me a link, I need the buzz

Well, I tried to introduce local elections and a lot of other features. But the borgish "Tribal Council" was so close to Traditional, "political correctness" etc, that I had to go with the least worst option. Also, the present system failed to develop some historicity and player involvement, and much of that was Shattereds fault, the despot that had an extremely rough personal life we felt indirectly here in the forums.

Local elections (cities and regions) would really lift the game, but we never got the chance to institute those. Most new "jobs" are local jobs, not government jobs. The failure also lies by those casual succession gamers that insist to take lead, but fails to distribute responsibility etc.

The good part is, the court system is gone, inspired by US Civics 101, Guantanamo War Court and some other inspirations from the New World Court system (kid version).

Also, Ice2k4, I got a "romance" with Ravensfire and on occasions Daveshack if you havent noticed

Some posters tries to make me look like Pol Pot or something by default, where I am just a regular computer gamer in reality.