Allies March to Warszawa!

[TheLastOne36]

Let's say it already happened, i want to draw a map, but i need to know some things.

I'd think that East Poland would get it's Majority Polish lands in lithuania and Belarus. Let's say up to Minsk and Vilnuis. (Minsk was razed to the ground by German planes btw, would that effect anything).

How big would West Germany be? Silesia defenitly shown they wanted to be part of Poland as shown by the Silesian Uprisings. I think that Silesia would be Polish, but i'm not sure about Gdansk and Szczecin. I have a feeling West Poland get's Gdansk but loses Szczecin?

I'm just thinking, Germany would still be divided by France, England and America like in real life right? Well in real life, Russia also split of Germany. Germany became two countries and was much smaller afterwords. With a united Germany, wouldn't their be fears that Germany could be to big and have another uprising? (Probably wouldn't happen, but i said fears, after two wars people i'm sure would be biased and afraid that Germany will start a third war). The End result is West Poland getting all 3 areas, as well as probably areas like Lusatia, and areas such as Bavaria becoming fully independent,

I will make a map after some feedback.

[Squonk]

Originally Posted by TheLastOne36

Because instead of it Happening in Germany, it'll happen in Poland?

I believe he is right. Stalin pushed the westernmost borders for Poland because
1) it made excuse for keeping eastern Poland
2) because he was sure Poland remained under his rule, and with Germany, it wasn't sure.

It all depends how far the allies would have got:

to eastern borders of Poland: Poland is re-established in pre-war borders + Upper Silesia, Masuria and perhaps entire Prussia, Gdansk and Slupsk, but without Lower Silesia, Lubusz region or Western Pommerania. Perhaps it has to let Wolyn and Polesie go to USSR.
The rest share the usual fate, if Soviets got there - communists take the rules.

to Bug: Stalin keeps eastern half of Poland, and again, Poland gets Upper Silesia, Prussia, Gdansk and Slupsk/Stolp. Poland remains capitalist.

Between western borders and Bug - Poland loses its eastern part, and gets USilesia, Gdansk, Prussia and Slupsk/Stolp. A mixed communist - democratic gouverment is established, but communists finally manage to oust the democratic parties and communism is established. Western mights issue usual letters of complains, nothing happens.

Allies get to western borders of Poland - Poland remains communistic, either gets the usual gains, or gets nothing or nearly nothing (Prussia for sure, and perhaps some part of Upper Silesia).

[Loki130]

The allies would have moved into Poland without a second thought if they could-the Cold War was in full swing by that time and both sides knew that where ever this war ended could be the initial front lines for the next one.
On another note, I think it would be a mixed blessing for the Germans: they'd remain unified, but in real life they got lots of aid and support because of their strategic position on the border. Without this, the allies would probably be far less generous.

[TheLastOne36]

Originally Posted by Squonk

I believe he is right. Stalin pushed the westernmost borders for Poland because
1) it made excuse for keeping eastern Poland
2) because he was sure Poland remained under his rule, and with Germany, it wasn't sure.

It all depends how far the allies would have got:

to eastern borders of Poland: Poland is re-established in pre-war borders + Upper Silesia, Masuria and perhaps entire Prussia, Gdansk and Slupsk, but without Lower Silesia, Lubusz region or Western Pommerania. Perhaps it has to let Wolyn and Polesie go to USSR.
The rest share the usual fate, if Soviets got there - communists take the rules.

to Bug: Stalin keeps eastern half of Poland, and again, Poland gets Upper Silesia, Prussia, Gdansk and Slupsk/Stolp. Poland remains capitalist.

Between western borders and Bug - Poland loses its eastern part, and gets USilesia, Gdansk, Prussia and Slupsk/Stolp. A mixed communist - democratic gouverment is established, but communists finally manage to oust the democratic parties and communism is established. Western mights issue usual letters of complains, nothing happens.

Allies get to western borders of Poland - Poland remains communistic, either gets the usual gains, or gets nothing or nearly nothing (Prussia for sure, and perhaps some part of Upper Silesia).

What do you think is more likely? East Poland getting sucked up into part of Russia or remianing independent?

I have the feeling it would be independent. Do you think any lands to the east, in Lithuania, Belarus, Carpathian Ruthenia would be part of East Poland?

Also 1 or two more comments then i'll have enough to make the map tomorow.

[Squonk]

Eastern Poland would be a part of USSR as far as it would have taken it. If it was taken by Allies, some or all of it would remain polish. Carpathian Ruthenia would remain part of Cz-S, Lithuania (apart from the polish part) would remain independant, and (eastern) Belarus, if captured by Allies, would be returned to SU.

It is possible regional unions would be formed, there was a lot of talking about it during ww2: Poland agreed on union with Cz-S, and Yugoslavia with Greece... So perhaps this would continue.

[TheLastOne36]

Originally Posted by Squonk

Eastern Poland would be a part of USSR as far as it would have taken it. If it was taken by Allies, some or all of it would remain polish. Carpathian Ruthenia would remain part of Cz-S, Lithuania (apart from the polish part) would remain independant, and (eastern) Belarus, if captured by Allies, would be returned to SU.

It is possible regional unions would be formed, there was a lot of talking about it during ww2: Poland agreed on union with Cz-S, and Yugoslavia with Greece... So perhaps this would continue.

Well, the story is that, the allies get to Warszawa, and Warszawa is more of a dividing point between West Poland and East Poland.

[rilnator]

Originally Posted by Dachspmg

Theoretically, it wouldn't involve a clash between the Western Allies and the USSR, because the Anglo-Americano-Free French-etc. armies would just have gotten there much faster.

Yeah, and Stalin would have just let them break their agreements and claim the prize despit what his country had been through.

The Russians had reached Poland by August '44 and they paused outside Warsaw to let the resistance be crushed.

Dreaming.

[TheLastOne36]

Originally Posted by rilnator

Yeah, and Stalin would have just let them break their agreements and claim the prize despit what his country had been through.

The Russians had reached Poland by August '44 and they paused outside Warsaw to let the resistance be crushed.

Dreaming.

This is an Alternate History, so let's just say that the allies were much earlier with D-Day and market garden and stuff and got to Berlin faster, and managed to get all the way to Warsaw, while the soviets were still fighting there way to Warsaw by december.

From then on, what will the history be?

I'm drawing a map, so, do you think Hungary is Communist? If we keep the divide along the Vistula river, Hungary and Slovakia would be communist, and czech, and West Poland wouldn't be.

I'm predicting the Balkans will stay the same.

What do you think of Bavarian independence? Any other Germanic states should get independence?

[warpus]

Well.. if the allies get to Warszawa before the Soviets, then that means that Germany has already capitulated. doesn't it? I mean, they'd have to take Berlin before they go for Warsaw, right?

Why would they keep going if they already took Berlin? Doesn't that imply a German capitulation and an end of the war in Europe?

Or did the fighting continue in parts of the continent even after Berlin was taken by the Soviets?

[TheLastOne36]

Originally Posted by warpus

Well.. if the allies get to Warszawa before the Soviets, then that means that Germany has already capitulated. doesn't it? I mean, they'd have to take Berlin before they go for Warsaw, right?

Why would they keep going if they already took Berlin? Doesn't that imply a German capitulation and an end of the war in Europe?

Or did the fighting continue in parts of the continent even after Berlin was taken by the Soviets?

Fighting happenes alot after the capturing of a capital in real life. So why wouldn't it in WWII?

[Elrohir]

Originally Posted by Cheezy the Wiz

Yes, well, they DID suffer the most of any Ally that war.

That's hardly the Poles' fault.

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Originally Posted by Elrohir

That's hardly the Poles' fault.

And how much did Poland suffer as a result of it? Apart from the parts of the war that actually happened in their country, that is.

The Red Army regardless deserved the pride of taking Berlin themselves.

[Loki130]

I just rememberred i book a read where a historian theorized that if the Western Allies had shot for Berlin it might have resulted in an "accidental" bombing of them by the Soviets, making Eisenhower reluctant to continue and possibly even forcing him to turn back. Perhaps this could contribute to the conversation.

[REDY]

Yalta conference. It was realy not about reach area, Prague should be liberated by Americans before Soviets.