ALC Game #25 Pre-Game Show: Playing as the Celts/Boudica

[Gliese 581]

Guerilla 3 is not bad when facing a tough hill city defender like flanking is not bad when facing tough defenders, so it has its uses.

[Ultimocrat]

do not even bother trying to use the guerrilla promotions. they are stupid and useless. play your wars normally.

Let's consider the alternatives for promoting gallic warriors -- by starting with G1, you can immediately promote to G2 with a barracks, and to G3 with a combat victory (I think someone else mentioned this). You could have also promoted up the CR line to CR1 and CR2. Let's consider some likely units we'd be facing:

1) A CG1 archer, full fortification bonus, in a city with 20% cultural defense:

vs. GII or GIII gallic, which has modified strength 6.6
the archer has modified strength 3*(1 (base) + 0.25 (fortification) + 0.2 (culture) + 0.7 (city defense) - 0.1 (sword bonus for city attack)) = 6.15

against a CRI gallic (still modified strength 6.6), the archer has modified strength 5.55; against a CRII gallic, the archer's modified strength drops to 4.8.

I don't know what the survival odds are exactly for these cases, due to the first-strike business, but the battle looks to be roughly 50-50 odds or victory for the G2 or G3 gallic against the archer, somewhat better for the CRI, and much better for the CRII. Of course, we haven't talked about the 50% withdrawal bonus, which is huge, swinging a 50-50 battle to have 75% odds that your unit will survive.

2) CI axe, same fortification bonus, same city -- it's 6.6 vs. 9.75 (5*(1+0.1+0.25+0.2+0.5-0.1)) for G2 or GIII, 6.6 vs. 8.75 for CRI, and 6.6 vs. 7.5 for CRII. Combat odds are less than 50-50 in all cases, so your best odds of survival are with the GIII gallic.

Obviously, defense odds are never better with a CR-promoted unit than a G-promoted one. And if you're able to make an attack approach just on hills, then having a G-stack rather than a CR- stack also obviates the need for a shock axe defender (CI shock axe attacking hilltop CI shock axe is 5.5 vs. 6.75; CI shock axe attacking hilltop GII gallic is 5.5 vs 6.6).

Basically, I think that if the map is hilly enough, you might want to consider starting gallic warriors on the guerilla line, and promoting up the CR line only after getting to G3.



The G2 bonus of double hill movement will also be pretty nice (and with the hill defense bonus you're unlikely to be attacked when ending on a hill) -- you can strike much more rapidly at deep targets if there are substantial hills in the enemy's territory.

[nokem]

Originally Posted by TheDifficult3rd

Those +3 pop will mean more whipping...

Wouldn't it mean less whipping? It will take longer to grow to the happy cap before you start, and it will take longer to regrow between each whip.

[Artichoker]

I'd be really impressed if Sisiutil makes good use of the Gallic Warriors. One obvious advantage is the more flexible resource requirements, but other than that I don't see a big advantage of using them.

It seems like the key to succeeding with this leader is to streamline tech research in the medieval era. Some techs such as Engineering or Machinery may not be as important as in a usual game. If you focus on one branch of the tech tree, you may be able to produce better results.

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

Originally Posted by Ultimocrat

Of course, we haven't talked about the 50% withdrawal bonus, which is huge, swinging a 50-50 battle to have 75% odds that your unit will survive.

Note: I haven't played Boudica, so I'm speculating here, but ...

IMHO that's the most significant benefit of the Guerilla line. In a typical war, I usually assume I need a minimum of 2 attackers per defender to ensure success. In many/most cases (pre-catapults, high cultural defense, walls, protective, etc.), a 3 to 1 ratio is safer. That's because the first wave of attacks, and perhaps some of a second, are suicide attacks.

With Guerilla III, 50% of your "suicide" attacks don't result in suicide! That's huge.

Maybe you only promote half of your units along the Guerilla line and half on City Raider, but I can't see how all City Raider could be better.

[madscientist]

In regards to using the Gallic in war

1) That 50% retreat is nice but consider the unit will NOT have CR promotions then.
2) HAs with flanking II made better suicide units.
3) Gallics require only copper, which is a benefit.
4) Gallics provide an extra hill defense when it's adjacent to a city you are attacking.
5) Gallics provide extra defence when capturing a city on the hill.
6) Gallics free promotion or Guerilla II are kept upon promotion, thus you can concievably get some Guerilla II machine guns in the future.

Gallics offer alot of little advantages that can be used, not real overpowering WOW affect.

[Tyrant Roger]

I recommend Big and Small continents as the map type. Usually lots of room for combat, but not as predictable as Pangea.

Stonehenge is quite powerful in any circumstance, but doubly so with Charismatic leaders. It is almost the equivalent of a third trait [creative]. But with the happiness thrown in. You may want to use your second city to chop it so that it gets the culture boost and the prophet points.

Early aggression yes, but not before you have at least three cities; unless of course someone is right next door and you have metals/horses and they don't.

[r_rolo1]

Originally Posted by madscientist

In regards to using the Gallic in war

1) That 50% retreat is nice but consider the unit will NOT have CR promotions then.
2) HAs with flanking II made better suicide units.
3) Gallics require only copper, which is a benefit.
4) Gallics provide an extra hill defense when it's adjacent to a city you are attacking.
5) Gallics provide extra defence when capturing a city on the hill.
6) Gallics free promotion or Guerilla II are kept upon promotion, thus you can concievably get some Guerilla II machine guns in the future.

Gallics offer alot of little advantages that can be used, not real overpowering WOW affect.

You forgot the + 25% attack to hills, the strongest effect of Guerrilla III IMHO, given the love that BtS AI has for cities on hills .As G. warriors start with Guerrilla I and this is a Cha leader, we're only 4 XP away of it ( barracks + Vassalage or Theo or a settled GG ). Using the HA methaphor, a guerrilla III G.warrior attacking a hilled city is a 1 tile/turn move HA with flanking II and CR that has defensive terrain bonuses, especially on hills

[tycoonist]

don't play on a weird map just to demonstrate the guerrilla promo, because that just isn't informative or applicable to most situations.

[r_rolo1]

What is a wierd map, tycoonist?

[Gliese 581]

HIghlands is a weird map.

[r_rolo1]

No wierder than tectonics. And since tectonics was already used.....

[Lord Chambers]

Originally Posted by Sisiutil

I'm undecided on the map type, so we can discuss that.

Shuffle please. Picking continents or pangea or some other land map while choosing Romans or Boudicia is very similar to selecting Noble.

[Shadowkx]

I think the map decides what strategy to use. While leaders traits make certain strategy stronger you can not decide on which to use until you see the map (unless you hand select the map that is). Deciding on an early rush only to find you an isolated or off on a large landmass by yourself makes no sense.

As for the map shuffle is a favorite of mine as well. Or random setting on Tectonics.

[Hereditary Rule]

Originally Posted by Lord Chambers

Shuffle please. Picking continents or pangea or some other land map while choosing Romans or Boudicia is very similar to selecting Noble.

Seconded

I want us all to wondering what the map is right up until the mid game.

[Dr Yes]

Originally Posted by Lord Chambers

Shuffle please. Picking continents or pangea or some other land map while choosing Romans or Boudicia is very similar to selecting Noble.

Then don't use shuffle but pick one of the map types that provide more of a challenge. Would you feel better shuffling and getting Pangaea?

[Gliese 581]

I agree with random map. The great thing about somewhat lackluster UUs/UBs is that they will have less of a corrupting influence on playstyle whereas great UUs/UBs might put more pressure on the player to play a certain way instead of adapting to the circumstances.

[Celebithil]

I would ask Sisiutil to do use the Guerilla promotions on his Gallic Warriors. While G2 is not extremely good for attackers, G3 makes up for it, and the charismatic trait ensures it is easy to get to G3. When attacking a city on a hill, the difference with a CR2 gallic warrior is just the first CR promotion, while you still have a 50% chance of withdrawal.

I would argue they are better suicide units than Horse Archers. They have a slightly higher withdrawal rate, with the free Combat 1 promotion they have higher strength and they have better promotion options (i.e. CR) should they still survive. Moreover when bringing Gallic Warriors (unpromoted) in a stack, you can choose at the last moment whether you need an extra suicide unit, or start using the CR units. When attacking cities on a hill they become even better. Finally they are also cheaper than HAs and are better at defending (which is a bit of a non-concern as suicide units shouldn't defend, but still).

Finally, as the ALCs are meant to show how unique units can be used, just ignoring the bonus of the UU seems off.

[popejubal]

I think that the Dun is largely worthless, but I would like to suggest putting it in at least whatever city gets Heroic Epic and/or a settled Great General.

Free Geurilla isn't a game breaker, certainly, but it is still a free promotion and I'd say it's worthwhile to spend a few hammers on a promotion-granting Wall when you're going to be pumping out zillions of units from that city even if the free promotion isn't City Raider.

[TheDifficult3rd]

Originally Posted by nokem

Wouldn't it mean less whipping? It will take longer to grow to the happy cap before you start, and it will take longer to regrow between each whip.

Sorry, I was unclear. More whipping in the sense that'll you potentially have more pop available to do bigger whips, if needed.

How quickly you regrow is obviously a consideration yes, but then that is true for any amount of whipping. My point is that if you have plenty of food in the BFC (possibly unlikely for Immortal), then the +3 gives you the option to grow to a larger size so you can whip bigger builds sooner.

Also, it allows you to whip (for example) size 5->3 rather than 3->1 to ensure you always have a good amount of tiles worked even after a whip.