New Mana Types questions

[Charybdis]

So fiddling about with my first game with the new mana types, mousing over them in the mana list says 'benefits are cumulative' like with earth/life/mind etc mana.

Wondering if the 4 new ones have any passive bonus?

[xienwolf]

Nope, they have the mystically cumulative "nothing" bonus to offer. Get it while supplies last!

[MagisterCultuum]

Will they (or even the other mana types) be getting passive bonuses?


Why does Ice mana not give cold mana though affinity? (Why are its spells so weak?)

Why don't Djinni get affinity for the new mana types?


Are new Unique features that provide these new mana types going to be added soon? Or old ones revamped? (Force makes so much more sense than Enchantment for the Seven Pines.)


Do you think that Creation 3 might be too powerful for the Calabim and Infernals?


Is there any way for a Mages ranged attack from Force 1 to become any stronger than an adept's? It seems like there should be, since direct damage spells can be boosted by combat or metamagic promotions. Maybe all levels of Force should boost <iAirCombat> and <iAirCombatLimitBoost> by a little (although I'd probably leave the range at 1).


Shouldn't the Dimensional sphere have some sort of boost for summons?


Doesn't it seem like Dimensional mana should have a diplo penalty/The Overcouncil should be able to ban it? Ceridwen seems to be to be the second most evil angel, so her sphere is more worthy of banning than is Shadow. It might also be appropriate units with dimensional promotions to go serve Hyborem, like those with Death or Entropy do.

[Mailbox]

I think Shadow is looked down so heavily in the Overcouncil because it is anathema to the idea of openness and freedom that they try to foster. Dimensional seems like it could be the "Law" of evil manas in that it is widely used by a lot of civilizations, regardless of intent.

[Skitters]

Just a thought, but perhaps the Summon Frost Golem spell should just be kept as a Level III spell and Summon Frostling remain an option (Death technically has two Level III spells so no reason that Ice shouldn't)

Why?! - well a Frostling could be just enough to weaken an enemy for an Ice Mage/other unit to attack directly and reap those extra experience points, wheras the Golem would be more likely to kill outright...

Also made me think that maybe some other spheres could do with something similar, for example the Nature sphere - what if a Level III mage could cast the fortification spell on any terrain?

Or if Stoneskin would last for 1-3 attacks (bit more resistance to assasin stacks)

Or a combination of Blaze and Fire to start forest fires at a safer distance?

[Demus]

i still think frostlings and frost golems should get cold mana affinity, seems fitting somehow

[Vehem]

Originally Posted by MagisterCultuum

Will they (or even the other mana types) be getting passive bonuses?

Definitely.

Originally Posted by MagisterCultuum

Why does Ice mana not give cold mana though affinity? (Why are its spells so weak?)

The only suitable unit I can think of so far is the Ice Golem - though it makes sense to give it to that.

Originally Posted by MagisterCultuum

Why don't Djinni get affinity for the new mana types?

Will add that.

Originally Posted by MagisterCultuum

Are new Unique features that provide these new mana types going to be added soon? Or old ones revamped? (Force makes so much more sense than Enchantment for the Seven Pines.)

Force and Ice will probably go to Seven Pines and Letum Frigus repectively.

Originally Posted by MagisterCultuum

Do you think that Creation 3 might be too powerful for the Calabim and Infernals?

Would have been for Infernals, but Fallow civs are blocked for that reason. Definitely potent for Calabim - though they still have to contend with unhappiness and it's possible to have a larger city than size 8 growing every turn anyway using farms/breeding pits/granaries/smokehouses - which would yield more experience per turn. It does mean that you can feed on lesser cities for a while though - if it does become an issue, I'll add a check to prevent you growing a city into unhappiness with the spell.

Originally Posted by MagisterCultuum

Is there any way for a Mages ranged attack from Force 1 to become any stronger than an adept's? It seems like there should be, since direct damage spells can be boosted by combat or metamagic promotions. Maybe all levels of Force should boost <iAirCombat> and <iAirCombatLimitBoost> by a little (although I'd probably leave the range at 1).

Still toying with making that one a Level 2 spell and implementing the suggested "accelerate non-living haste" suggestion. I'll take a look at what adding AirDamage without AirRange does (am assuming nothing) for Metamagic. Adding both Damage and Range however would actually create the spell innately (all you need to have is both set, and the spell is castable).

Originally Posted by MagisterCultuum

Shouldn't the Dimensional sphere have some sort of boost for summons?

Any suggestions of what sort?

Originally Posted by MagisterCultuum

Doesn't it seem like Dimensional mana should have a diplo penalty/The Overcouncil should be able to ban it? Ceridwen seems to be to be the second most evil angel, so her sphere is more worthy of banning than is Shadow. It might also be appropriate units with dimensional promotions to go serve Hyborem, like those with Death or Entropy do.

Originally Posted by Mailbox

I think Shadow is looked down so heavily in the Overcouncil because it is anathema to the idea of openness and freedom that they try to foster. Dimensional seems like it could be the "Law" of evil manas in that it is widely used by a lot of civilizations, regardless of intent.

That's pretty much how I'm looking at it. Ceridwen was the source of the old magic for the mortal races, so most types of magic are going to be based on things taught at that time. Unless you view all magic as evil (and I'm sure some in Erebus do), it's hard to separate the evil part from it. Same as fire - in theory, it should no longer be a "good" magic as Bhall has fallen, but it's not considered to be evil either.

The nature of the banned types (Deception, Destruction and Necromancy) are distinctly "bad", whilst Dimensional is mostly concerned with traveling the Ether. Ceridwen may be evil, but not all applications of her teachings are - even within her own sphere.

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I second Skitters' idea of having the summon frostling spell not be "overwritten" by the ice golems, it could be useful even in later stages. oh, and I think the frostlings should be permanent, just make 'em weaker if that's a problem. also, a minor ice mana affinity could be nice for them

[Psychic_Llamas]

ICE AFFINITY FOR FROSTLINGS AND GOLEMS PLS!

also a unique feature with creation mana would be great, is there some site where the big bad god boss first created stuff? 9sorry for my incoherance, im tired and sick...

[Vehem]

Originally Posted by Psychic_Llamas

ICE AFFINITY FOR FROSTLINGS AND GOLEMS PLS!

Reworked Ice Golems a fair bit to be permanent, higher defense, partially cold damage and Ice Affinity - means that they're nice solid units, but still won't heal as they're golems. Gives a choice between recasting a damaged Ice Golem or using Frozen Lands. Also removed the python to block frostlings at the same time.

Frostlings as a level 1 are too low level for affinity. Will be looking at other things for them though.

[Psychic_Llamas]

awsome


IDEA: can you have negative affinity? ie having fire mana makes your ice golems weaker?

[Vehem]

Originally Posted by Psychic_Llamas

awsome


IDEA: can you have negative affinity? ie having fire mana makes your ice golems weaker?

Interesting question - I'd imagine so

Ideas are a-rumbling...

(main problem there is that I think Fire is opposed by Water, Ice is opposed by Nature...)

[Psychic_Llamas]

awsome

im loving the new mana btw

[Mailbox]

Originally Posted by Vehem

(main problem there is that I think Fire is opposed by Water, Ice is opposed by Nature...)

Bhall was Mulcarn's foil before she fell.

[Vehem]

Originally Posted by Mailbox

Bhall was Mulcarn's foil before she fell.

Aye - it's an odd relationship as I understand it. Bhall fell, leaving opportunity for Mulcarn to enter creation, but it was Sucellus who entered to oppose him (being broken and scattered in the process).

It's also suggested that Nature opposes on the Mana chart.

===

I think the basic principle is that the opposing spheres were not necessarily the Good/Evil pairs of angels that kept each other in check. Bhall would have kept Mulcarn in check, but her sphere was opposed to Water/Danalin.

I've just been looking for any relevant quotes on this, but haven't found much yet. Might be one for Magister or Kael to comment on.

[MagisterCultuum]

Well, I was thinking of Dimensional less in terms of its usage, but of its psychological meaning. As I see it, the sphere of binding world together and tearing them apart is also the sphere of bonds between individuals. Originally this meant emotional intimacy with our loved ones (I'd say that Love is something that requires all spheres to work together), but (like the spheres of all the evil gods) has been corrupted. It now has to do with defining the worth of individuals in relation to others instead of valuing their intrinsic worth. It shows disrespect for the soul of others, and for one's own. It is about objectifying people by viewing them as means instead of ends unto themselves, and dehumanizing yourself by identifying purely by how you relate to others. It is the sphere that makes men view ruling over others as desirable and the sphere of unhealthy codependent relationships. It made Kyorlin value not his own life when his wife betrayed him, and made him view her as irreconcilably ruined by the taint of infidelity. It is the sphere that made Kyorlin seek to bind her eternally to him, until he learned the hard way that "Love's strongest bonds are those that loosest bind." It is the foolish binds that tie us to ephemeral things that must pass that leads to regret, depression, and and Emotional Pain (Remember, Ceridwen is the Lady of Pain, and her archangel the Mistress of Pain). The sphere embodies the confusion of self with things of the physical world, so in Buddhist terminology it represents all that keeps us from Enlightenment.


Ceridwen is not really the goddess or source of magic, she merely taught Kyorlin how to use the power he intrinsically had as a son of Nemed. Some men had already figured out how to do this on their own, but to a much lesser extent. She taught it to him as a way to use him as a tool, and to encourage him to use others. The only real connection between Ceridwen and Magic now is that it involves forcing you will upon creation instead of working together with the gods to bring about changes



I also think of it as the concept of Us vs. Them. It is the tendency to seperate ourselves and our interests from those we view as different, and to cling to only those most like us. This is the concept that first lead to the conflict of the Godswar, and is directly responsible for the fall of Mammon, Esus, Aeron, and Camulos, and the corruption present even in the good gods. It lead to the drawing of the battle lines between good and evil, and also led to some gods thinking that the war was none of their concern. It even seems instrumental in the corruption of Agares. I get the feeling that Ceridwen and Agares must have fallen at the same time, and then together lured the others to join their cause.


Although the sphere directly opposed to Dimensional is Force (Balance, the reaching of agreements together rather than unilaterally using others as tools), Dagda's nature of Neutrality would prevent him from being her opposition. I believe that that role would fall to Sirona and Lugus. (Amathoan might have helped too, as a defining characteristic of Cardith Lora/Eurabatres is a complete lack of favoritism, which is part of Ceridwen's aspect.)

Sirona's sphere of universal compassion is probably the opposed to Ceridwen's sphere on disrespect for persons, but frankly she has been very busy trying to fulfill the original purposes of Agares (Hope), Camulos (Peace), Esus (Trust), Mammon (looking out for the good of all), and Danalin (serenity) too, and is overworked. (The Fall of Agares could also be seen as him abandoning his old love for Sirona for a new love for Ceridwen, for a position of power instead of for the good of all. Although Sirona is not the type to hold a grudge, the conflict between Sirona and Ceriwen seems awfully personal, and I'm sure Ceridwen sees it that way.)

The way I see it, Lugus and the Empyrean should really oppose Ceridwen even more than they oppose Esus, because they would have uncovered that her sphere is the root of Esus's corruption. The Empyrean emphasizes the equality between kings and peasants, and between great empires and weak tribes. They look within for truth and to find intrinsic worth. They seek mediation, not domination.

It does bother me a bit that the Empyrean hero is a summoner, which seems to involve using a bit of Dimensional magic to bring in creatures from the outer planes.

Originally Posted by Vehem

Aye - it's an odd relationship as I understand it. Bhall fell, leaving opportunity for Mulcarn to enter creation, but it was Sucellus who entered to oppose him (being broken and scattered in the process).

It's also suggested that Nature opposes on the Mana chart.

===

I think the basic principle is that the opposing spheres were not necessarily the Good/Evil pairs of angels that kept each other in check. Bhall would have kept Mulcarn in check, but her sphere was opposed to Water/Danalin.

I've just been looking for any relevant quotes on this, but haven't found much yet. Might be one for Magister or Kael to comment on.

The conflicts between each god are the result from the natural conflicts between their spheres. Gods' natures have lead them to have natural allies and enemies that do not necessarily align with the distinctions between good, neutral, and evil that Men have drawn. Of course, all the evil gods are aligned with Agares, but they have their own preferences too. While the mana chart may show what sphere is most opposed to each sphere, these are far from the only animosities between the gods. Their chaotic natures make Bhall, Camulos, and Tali more likely to agree with each other; calm natures make Danalin, Sucellus, and Sirona great friends; the love of knowledge and understanding bring together Oghma, Lugus, Sirona, and Danalin; the love of nature bring together Sucellus, Cernunnos, and Amathaon; the love of tradition would bring together Kilmorph and Mulcarn, but their views of Agares lead to some conflict; selflessness makes Sirona most opposed to Aeron, but also leads to much conflict with Mammon, Camulos, and Junil.


Some gods' natures make them opposed to fighting at all, and some gods have taken the same side of the godswar as their opposite. When this is the case, it it necessary for a slightly-less-opposite diety to take the lead against them. Mulcarn's element is a harsh, complete stasis, or even a reactionary desire to oppose all change and take the world back in an opposing direction, towards some nostalgic past. The opposite of this is is a calm acceptance and embracing of gradual change and maturation, as represented by Sucellus/Cernunnos's sphere of Growth. However, the calming nature of this precept meant that Sucellus was a pacifist, not a tough fighter like his opposite. He chose to stay out of the godswar until absolutely necessary, and was probably forced by the other gods to get involved to stop Mulcan later on. As such, Bhall was the natural choice to oppose Mulcarn openly. They were not exact opposites, as they were both very harsh, unyielding characters. Bhall's sphere is passionate, emotional, quick throwing off of the status quo to bring about instant change. The opposite was the serene, sensitive emotional acceptance of how things are which exemplified Danalin, However, Danalin's nature (like Sucellus's) lead him to avoid all conflict. Besides, even if it hadn't been such a pacifist, both he and his opposite had sided with The One against Agares, so there would be little point in fighting.

Originally Posted by Psychic_Llamas

awsome


IDEA: can you have negative affinity? ie having fire mana makes your ice golems weaker?

I believe that you can, but that it would only effect the damage type in which the resources gives affinity, and can't go beneath 0. That means that Negative Fire affinity would only reduce the Frostling's fire strength, which it would be very strange for ti to have to begin with.

I've been pushing for some time to change the way Affinity is handles, so that the affinity type is not declared in the resource files but in the Promotion/Unit file where each instance of affinity is given. That would allow different units/promotion to give different types of affinity for the same resource, and would allow Fire mana to give negative Cold affinity and Ice mana to give Negative Fire affinity.

			<BonusAffinities>
				<BonusAffinity>
					<BonusType>BONUS_MANA_AIR</BonusType>
					<DamageType>DAMAGE_LIGHTNING</DamageType>
					<iAffinity>1</iAffinity>
				</BonusAffinity>
			</BonusAffinities>

What I'd like even more would be if typed affinity were broken up into offensive and defensive strengths, like normal damage types, and if ranged attacks could have damage types and affinity too.

[Vehem]

Originally Posted by MagisterCultuum

I believe that you can, but that it would only effect the damage type in which the resources gives affinity, and can't go beneath 0. That means that Negative Fire affinity would only reduce the Frostling's fire strength, which it would be very strange for ti to have to begin with.

I actually just tried this (granting -5 Ice Affinity to Djinns) and after connecting an Ice node, the Djinn was displayed as 2 Movement and no strength (we've already added a block to prevent final strength being less than 0). It seems that it would work after all...

Are the affinity strengths actually tied to any damage type anyway? If so, what type of damage would Law Affinity inflict? Nature Affinity? I suspect that tying a negative affinity to an Ice golem would allow all of it's base strength to be removed, leaving just the +4 Cold strength that is inherent to the unit...

EDIT: Checked that too - seems that the overall strength is set to 0 regardless of it's origin. Frostlings (2 Normal + 1 Cold) with a -20 Nature Affinity are set to 0 strength.

[MaxAstro]

Is Dimensional supposed to be a Necromancy sphere? I was under the impression that Force was the fifth necromancy sphere, mainly because in FfH .25 Dimensional was definately an Alteration sphere.

Also, some Affinity strengths are tied to a damage type. Fire mana affinity, for example, adds fire damage, and Air magic affinity adds lightning damage. I believe Nature affinity adds poison damage. Any mana type that doesn't have a damage type that would make sense with it just adds neutral damage.

I think giving negative Death mana affinity (for example) would add negative Death damage to the unit, which might work... oddly... against units that are immune to death damage.

EDIT: Also, I'm much more worried about Creation I being broken for the Calabim than Creation 3; storing 75% of your growth is INSANE. XD

[Mailbox]

What isn't broken about the Calabim though?

[MaxAstro]

After playing around a bit, I have decided that no, Creation III isn't broken at Strength of Will.

...However, if you rush Gibbon Goetia and get it at Deception, it is broken as hell. XD Of course, Gibbon Goetia is meant to be a huge strategic advantage, so that is perhaps WAD.