God strategy or exploit?

[Breunor]

I'm really enjoying my latest game, my first in a while. I'm playing the Ljosfar on emperor. With a shuffle map, I wound up on a continent with the Liurchup. I got the Ljosfar going, with FoL founded, teching well. I beat up the Liurchup and vassalized them.

On the other continent, Hyborem is brought in while I'll consolidating my continent and foresting it with my priests. Then, on some unsettled territory, I see a pillar of chains and hell terrain.

My son, (an immortal player) told me that this was trouble. If hell terrain spreads, it will kill my forests and I go from bad-ass elves to treeless non-entity.

Two strategies. I can build about 20 adepts and cast sanctify forever, but this is probably a losing battle. What he told me to do, however, was switch to Order. I reserach it, get it, get a city to have order in it, and switch. Now, I'm good and hell terrain won't spread. Then, he said, wait the 10 turns and switch back to Fellowship of Leaves. I'm still good, and now I have my religion back and stopped the hell terrain from moving.

Is this an exploit or a good tactic? I do suffer two anarchy periods, and I lose the abiltiy to build druids since I'm good. On the other hand, it was a powerhouse tactic and I got many times back what it cost. Is there an 'official' view on this, exploit or tactic?

Best wishes,

Breunor

[Charybdis]

It's fine, don't worry.

If you feel its exploity, don't do it, if you have no issue with using religion to permanently change your align around while keeping FoL, then do it.

Not like Kael is going to track you down and kick your dog for doing it.

[Breunor]

Originally Posted by Charybdis

It's fine, don't worry.

If you feel its exploity, don't do it, if you have no issue with using religion to permanently change your align around while keeping FoL, then do it.

Not like Kael is going to track you down and kick your dog for doing it.

I know Kael isn't going to beat me up (or send thousands of volts through my computer, although i don't doubt he could if he wanted to!)

Seriously, though, I am at least theoretically interested in whether this is 'intended' from a play balance standpoint. I know some people think the Ljostfar are very strong; and FoL is so well made for them. Does this make them too good? I suspect it is probably OK, since one of the Ljostfar leaders is good anyway which would avoid the problem -- but this can be a powerful tactic for any civ.

Indeed, it can impact diplomacy. A Civ can change to good or bad by taking the Veil or the Order and switching back to one of the neutral religions. Would it be fair to get the + on diplomacy from the same alignment?

So, yes, I can easily just not do it if its an exploit. The reason I ask is that I just haven't played FfH that much and I don't know how the designers are balancing the game. I'm asking if the designers intended to give the Civ's the ability to get these benefits in such a fashion?

I can see the answer being yes, that a civ should have the right to declare itself good or evil and the mechanic of switching to the religion is OK. (You can switch to neutral by switching to order and then OO!)

Or I can see the answer is no, that the Ljosfar/Svartalfar Leaves combination is very powerful but the hell terrain tactic is specifically supposed to be a weakness.

Best wishes,

Bruenor

[Nimbus]

Yes it is intended to be something you can take advantage of, however as the neutral elves you do not have to worry about hell terrain spreading to land you control until the AC hits 75.

[orangelex44]

It is actually balanced; if the AC is at 75 and you have to becoem Good to stop Hell terrain, then any Evil players will start to gang up on you... including Hyborum, who can ramp up in strength really quickly with enough combat in the world.

Now, in your particular game, you sound like you're isolated so it's not an issue. Go ahead and switch.

[Kael]

I even like the flavor of this solution. Armageddon is supposed to polarize the world and the fact that you shifted further toward good in the coming war works perfectly. The other option would have been to lower the AC counter to a point where hell doesnt spread into neutral lands and stay neutral.

[vivictius]

Couldnt you also stay neutral and get several levels of the alter built to stop the spread of hell terrain in your lands?

[Breunor]

Originally Posted by Kael

I even like the flavor of this solution. Armageddon is supposed to polarize the world and the fact that you shifted further toward good in the coming war works perfectly. The other option would have been to lower the AC counter to a point where hell doesnt spread into neutral lands and stay neutral.

Thanks Kael!

Best wishes,

Breunor

[Nikis-Knight]

Originally Posted by Charybdis

It's fine, don't worry.

If you feel its exploity, don't do it, if you have no issue with using religion to permanently change your align around while keeping FoL, then do it.

Not like Kael is going to track you down and kick your dog for doing it.

Wait, I'm confused; Kael, you told me to put Bruenor on our list of "cat owners" not "dog owners"!

[Pike the Hands]

Originally Posted by vivictius

Couldnt you also stay neutral and get several levels of the alter built to stop the spread of hell terrain in your lands?

The Altar used to do this, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't anymore (more's the pity). Can anyone confirm/deny for sure?

[Kael]

Originally Posted by Pike the Hands

The Altar used to do this, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't anymore (more's the pity). Can anyone confirm/deny for sure?

It doesn't (it was really hard on the processor to maintain).

[Charybdis]

Would be interesting if you could get buildings that you could create on tiles to fight back any hell terrain that spreads in a 1 tile radius.

[Zechnophobe]

Originally Posted by Charybdis

Would be interesting if you could get buildings that you could create on tiles to fight back any hell terrain that spreads in a 1 tile radius.

It'd be freaking awesome if Order Nodes countered the growth around them in, say, a 2 square radius. (Maybe life instead?)

[Breunor]

Originally Posted by orangelex44

It is actually balanced; if the AC is at 75 and you have to becoem Good to stop Hell terrain, then any Evil players will start to gang up on you... including Hyborum, who can ramp up in strength really quickly with enough combat in the world.

Now, in your particular game, you sound like you're isolated so it's not an issue. Go ahead and switch.

Yes, that is good advice. Now, of course, I have to go over and conquer them! I ahve a lot to take, but I'm a builder -- I have a whole continent of forests and improvements. Now, its on to turn the other continent into a big forest!

Best wishes,

Breunor

[Breunor]

Originally Posted by Nikis-Knight

Wait, I'm confused; Kael, you told me to put Bruenor on our list of "cat owners" not "dog owners"!

Wow, you guys really take care of details, don't you!

Best wishes,

Breunor

[Blackmantle]

Also mind that this makes sense in flavor as well. Kael did outline it roughly allready.

But in the world itself it likely comes down to: The Order hirarchy rallies you to fight off the Demons and remain pure in heart and deed to prevent you Forests from becoming corrupted.
And the FoL you'll follow after your second switch will focus morely on the protective / nurturing side of nature (good FoL) rather than its pure indifferent form (neutral FoL). So its not really the "same religion" in practice.

Thats what the FoL is all about after all. Diversity. And the impending demise of the elves beloved forests may very well trigger such a change of mind. (The other possible choice of course whould be to embrace the taint, switch to Veil (and stay with it), run StW and let your Forests decay abolishing your old love for greener pastures. Or if you want to stay neutral go around sanctifying / be forced to actively fight Armageddon.)
Go over and kick Hyborems butt allright...

Also there is a huge tradeoff: No Druids (or at least no further Druids). That alone is quite a cost. (Since they are the strongest of the 3 Tier 4 religious fighters overall. At least imo.)

[Annex]

Originally Posted by Blackmantle

Also there is a huge tradeoff: No Druids (or at least no further Druids). That alone is quite a cost. (Since they are the strongest of the 3 Tier 4 religious fighters overall. At least imo.)

I think it depends on your style of play. I prefer Paladins or Eidolins over Druids.

But I agree its not an exploit. If you switch your religion you lose all your religious units, including heroes.

[onedreamer]

not an exploit but not necessarily a good strategy (nor a God strategy ). The best strategy is to colonize unsettled territory, also I doubt you need 20 adepts; in case you really need it means you are so huge you should be off destroying Hyborem already.

[Breunor]

Originally Posted by onedreamer

not an exploit but not necessarily a good strategy (nor a God strategy ). The best strategy is to colonize unsettled territory, also I doubt you need 20 adepts; in case you really need it means you are so huge you should be off destroying Hyborem already.

I probably should have attacked earlier. Remember I am on a continents map so invading against a huge enemy force of Hyborem and Flauros isn't easy. I took my whole continent (essentially). There really isn't unsettled territory.

The worst part of this strategy is losing my heroes; the good news, though is that I rebuilt them. I wanted to wait for them to get up in strength. I'm outbuilding the bad guys.

I wanted to do two things before the invasion. First was to get control of the seas. On a continent maps, the ship stuff can be important. But the really big thing was that I got the Nexus. That allows me to send in reinforcements quickly. I invaded the turn after I finished the nexus.


To Kael's early point, this HAS worked well on a flavor standpoint. After all, I killed a bunch of really nasty horsemen and I am the force against evil in the world. Yup, it is up to my to take on Hyborem, that's a role I'm taking. So my being 'good' kind of does make sense.

I've just started the war. I do think I will win, my mages are very, very strong. But I have a long way to go ......

Best wishes,

Breunor

PS Unfortunately, I can't figure out how to edit the thread name.

[Darksaber1]

Originally Posted by Breunor

PS Unfortunately, I can't figure out how to edit the thread name.

The way you change thread names is to polity ask Woodelf or another moderator to change it.