Giving in to Kings Demands ?

[Refar]

I mean the "Lump Sum of Gold" ones.
Is there any point to it ?

I gave in every time he asked. Even the ridiculous demand on Turn 5 asking for 60 of my 100 Starting money.

He remained at "Cautious" for the entire game (I think the stance is just a Artifact from Civ anyway ?! I never seen it change to better or wose. Or does it Matter / Change sometimes ?!).

He came with tax increases every single time i sold a shipload of Goods to Europe (And i was Playing Van der Donck )
(Shipping goods to Europe became pretty pointless very fast anyway - the prices droped awfully fast But this is another subject not related to the rant at hand )

He never gave me nothing when i asked for military help... Tho i wasn't really in Danger, i just asked a few times, to see what happens, so this might not be his fault...

[dermoth]

I've had a Pleased king a couple of times. Makes naff all difference, though; he still up takes (maybe slightly slower than normal) and you still gotta fight him.

[Antilogic]

Sometimes, the king will offer you a veteran soldier for 750 gold instead of the higher price on the European docks (around 2000 and increases for every one you purchase). However, I can't figure out the logic to it. I tend to refuse an awful lot of monetary demands though. As in, all of them.

[Barns]

I never give him lump sums only tax increases if it's a good I need to sell/buy, and he always ends up furious with me but it makes no difference, he still only adds soldiers to the REF once I start generating LBs and then only at the same rate as usual as far as I can tell. Maybe someone who knows the code can enlighten us?

Funnily though, I've just won on Conquistador after doing the lower levels and had no idea you could even talk to him and ask for military assistance, doh! So, maybe being nice to him could get him to sell cheaper soldiers more often?

I'll try it...

[Refar]

Kings mood is not tied to REF generation, REF only depends on LB's.

So overall i am going to tell him to go bug someone else from now on.

[Antilogic]

Dale has implied in other threads that there is little to no penalty for opposing the king (besides the fact he won't sell you as many discounted veteran soldiers). However, quantity can win the WoI just as well as quality. Refuse him and use the money to buy more tools/guns/cannons.

[Öjevind Lång]

Originally Posted by Antilogic

Dale has implied in other threads that there is little to no penalty for opposing the king (besides the fact he won't sell you as many discounted veteran soldiers). However, quantity can win the WoI just as well as quality. Refuse him and use the money to buy more tools/guns/cannons.

Is there any penalty to having a big army? Does the king react to that?

[Antilogic]

He might not sell you any more veteran soldiers on the cheap (750 per troop as compared to the 2000+ cost in Europe), but the size of the REF is determined solely by liberty bells.

[Refar]

Well... I am not sure the savings you might get from cheaper troops (i have yet to get my first cheap soldier from the King) are most likely outweighted by the Money you give him.

On another note... The kings seem to be not equally annoying. I played the English and Dutch so far (both multiple times), and the Dutch one only pops up rarely, while the English is a Real PITA.

Perhaps the Dutch "Lower Taxes" Trait does affect the Probability of him demanding Money as well ? Does someone know for sure ?

[player1 fanatic]

Originally Posted by Antilogic

Sometimes, the king will offer you a veteran soldier for 750 gold instead of the higher price on the European docks (around 2000 and increases for every one you purchase). However, I can't figure out the logic to it. I tend to refuse an awful lot of monetary demands though. As in, all of them.

You need to have decent relations with the king, as well as enought money in order to get veteran solider or cannon from him at 50% discount.

As long as his status is not "Annoyed", you'll be able to successfully ask for unit, if you have the money.

Also, such requests reduce relations a little bit ("you are drain to my economy" or something), but they recover in a few turns.

Of course, if you deny gold sums a lot from the king then surely he'll be too mad to consider giving you cheap units.

Personally, I think that I profied more from good relations and my "demands" then king with his gold requests in my games.

Usually, he first offers veteran solider (guns inluded), then cannon, then veteran solder again, cannon, etc... It still inflates prices, like you purchased them in europe normally (first solider would be 750, next 900). So it will be useful for limited time.

[Öjevind Lång]

Originally Posted by player1 fanatic

Usually, he first offers veteran solider (guns inluded), then cannon, then veteran solder again, cannon, etc... It still inflates prices, like you purchased them in europe normally (first solider would be 750, next 900). So it will be useful for limited time.

I also have the impression that every time he sells a unit to you, he adds one to his own forces the following turn. So buying troops from the king should be saved for emergencies. And they turn up in Europe, so you have to fetch them yourself.

[player1 fanatic]

I do not have such impression.

[Öjevind Lång]

Originally Posted by player1 fanatic

I do not have such impression.

Of course I may be mistaken, but it kept happening in the game I just finished. Every time I bought a unit from him he added one to his own army on the following turn. Does anyone else have any feedback on this?

[Refar]

You are not mistaken. for the units bought from King through the diplo some "REF Bad Karma Points" are added to the LB's you have. I am not sure the exact numbers however.

[Öjevind Lång]

Originally Posted by Refar

You are not mistaken. for the units bought from King through the diplo some "REF Bad Karma Points" are added to the LB's you have. I am not sure the exact numbers however.

Thank you. I thought it couldn't be a coincidence.

This insanity where the king increases his army based on your number of liberty bells is, in my opinion, a really bad idea. It encourages gamers to sneak around, hiding their elder statesmen until they suddenly pop a revolution on the king. Why didn't they keep the old system where you played against the clock? You simply had to build up a strong civilization so you could succesfully rebel before the REF became impossibly large. That meant you could build up your cities instead of just using them as some sort of breeding pool for soldiers. I enjoyed the leisurely pace and the various stages of the game: settlement and exploration, then building up your colonies, then trying to handle your relations with the Indians and the other colonizing powers through peace or war, and then build up your civilization so it was in good shape for a rebellion.

[player1 fanatic]

Originally Posted by Refar

You are not mistaken. for the units bought from King through the diplo some "REF Bad Karma Points" are added to the LB's you have. I am not sure the exact numbers however.

Really?
I haven't seen this info in any of threads that discuss how REF increases work.

Hmmm...

[Refar]

I think there is just one by Axxon, and it is indeed not there - maybe he missed it. Or he derived his results from play-testing without checking the code.

I might of course be mistaken as well, but it's in the code and it seems rather clear.

Spoiler:

void CvPlayer::buyUnitsFromKing()
{
	PlayerTypes eParent = getParent();
	if (eParent == NO_PLAYER)
	{
		return;
	}

	CvPlayer& kParent = GET_PLAYER(eParent);

	int iNumUnits;
	UnitTypes eUnit;
	ProfessionTypes eProfession;
	int iPrice = kParent.AI_militaryHelp(getID(), iNumUnits, eUnit, eProfession);

	int iPriceModifier = GC.getDefineINT("KING_BUY_UNIT_PRICE_MODIFIER");
	for (int i = 0; i < iNumUnits; ++i)
	{
		CvUnit* pUnit = buyEuropeUnit(eUnit, iPriceModifier);
		if (pUnit != NULL)
		{
			pUnit->setProfession(eProfession);
		}
	}

	if (iNumUnits > 0)
	{
		changeBellsStored(iNumUnits * getEuropeUnitBuyPrice(eUnit) * iPriceModifier / 100);
	}
}

The BellsStored value in turn is directly used for adding units.

Spoiler:

if (getBellsStored() >= revolutionEuropeUnitThreshold() && iBellsRate > GC.getCivilizationInfo(getCivilizationType()).getF reeYields(YIELD_BELLS))
{
changeBellsStored(-revolutionEuropeUnitThreshold());
setRevolutionEuropeUnitThresholdMultiplier((getRev olutionEuropeUnitThresholdMultiplier() * (100 + GC.getDefineINT("REVOLUTION_EUROPE_UNIT_THRESHOLD_ INCREASE"))) / 100);

I am not sure about the amount of bad karma added, because i did not look up the getEuropeUnitPrice() method. But a assume it returns the correct price, in which case by buying a unit for 1000 Gold you would get 500 Bells. Seems to be a lot.

[player1 fanatic]

I just realized why I haven't experienced REF increase when asking king.

If you do not have LB generation on your own, just getting units from king won't expand his REF.

But the moment you get your first statesmen (3LB per turn), you'll get REF increases for several turns for all those units that you asked king for during the game.

Just tested on Pioneer with worldbuilder giving me 5000gp several times. Asked for around 3 cannons and 3 soldiers. Nothing happened. Then added statesmen. Result: several turns of REF increases.


P.S.
Now, I'm disappointed. I though that playing nice to the king (giving to his demands) was nicely rewarded with cheap units. But instead it more actually gives king in the long run.

I guess, getting units from king is actually only useful if you are hard pressed by natives or other colonial powers, and you really need cheap units quickly.

[Öjevind Lång]

Originally Posted by player1 fanatic

I guess, getting units from king is actually only useful if you are hard pressed by natives or other colonial powers, and you really need cheap units quickly.

Or early in the game, well before you start generating liberty bells. That's a rather neat feature in the game, actually.

[player1 fanatic]

Actually, it does not really matter. The moment you start producing any bells, all those "virtual bells" from buying king units will activate, and come as one REF increase per turn, until "spent".