about Bannor

[tipwong]

Many people says that Bannor was among the weak civs, and I am thinking about the leader angel, in the lore he said he would return, would the ffh team consider to put the angel as a buildable unique unit for them?
Any suggestions?

[orangelex44]

Yeah, I was checking the new .34 lore and re-noticed that too.

Honestly, I would doubt it. Having Sabathiel fight would be too much like the Illians/Auric, Infernal/Hyborem, and Mercurians/Basium. The FFH development team hates to use the same mechanic twice, and there's really no way to make Sabathiel buildable without infringing on one of those other civ's uniqueness.

What has probably happened is that the lore for Sabathiel was written really early in the development of FFH, and so it hasn't kept up with the changes since then. However, there is a small chance that he'll make an appearence in one of the scenarios....

[BugReportage]

Make crusade stronger perhaps.
I like the crusade idea but it's just plain weak when you compare it to Calabim's vampires and Amurite mages.
Seriously, these guys battled their way out of HELL. They were in hell for how long? The better part of the Age of Ice! Hell must be a pretty mellow place if these guys honestly fought off Satan for that long.
I was thinking perhaps Bannor needs a more "organized style" perhaps give them unique promotions they can use at fanatacism, power up the crusade so that demagogs spawn WAY more often and not just on towns (also in cities).

Their units hardly feel unique either. Perhaps to combat this each UNIT CLASS should have a role in the bannor army, not just guardsmen. Make it so each STACK of units for the bannor requires some archers, some cavalry, some melee. Give each unit a way to support the others. Guardsmen support divine/mages, Archers give a ONE TIME withdrawal bonus (archers provide cover for skirmishing forces so that they can retreat but not stackable as to prevent overpoweredness). Something along those lines.

Make each unit offer something to the others, I liked the "feel" of guardsmen. I think Bannor would definitely "feel" more unique with armies that functioned as a unit with synergies for people who got crusade, teched partially down to archery, horseback riding and bronze working. It'd definitely be mid to late game but at least I think the civ would be a bit more unique with these promotions.

That's my opinion anyways. I suppose ANYTHING sounds better than the current state of bannor, they feel like the illians did when they were unfinished. I definitely feel like Bannor is "unfinished" with how weak crusade is because of how weak demagogs are and the fact it degrades towns, you can't conduct diplomacy and that your entire crusading army just ups and leaves right after a conquest so you're in deep DOO DOO on holding all the lands you've gained.

[Monkeyfinger]

ITT people who don't know the difference between boring and underpowered

The Bannor strategy of "hordes of free generic melee units" lacks flash compared to a lot of the civs in the mod, but the substance is there. Demagog swarms supporting a normal army are very effective. And they can tech quickly up to that point because the demagogs rely on matured cottages to spawn - so you can spam them and favor tech over hammers, because eventually those cottages will double as barracks.

[onedreamer]

Originally Posted by BugReportage

Make crusade stronger perhaps.

Crusades are a lot stronger in 0.34. First the unit maintenance bug is really fixed (it wasn't until 0.33g), second the number of free units has been more than doubled.

Originally Posted by Monkeyfinger

ITT people who don't know the difference between boring and underpowered.

Looks like there are some wise people on this forum after all

[Fafnir13]

Originally Posted by onedreamer

Crusades are a lot stronger in 0.34. First the unit maintenance bug is really fixed (it wasn't until 0.33g), second the number of free units has been more than doubled.

Fixed? Oh goody! I'll have to try them out again.

[rusty217]

Sabathiel is the archangel of Law, he will follow the compact absolutely, and so won't even enter Erebus, so it would be very unlikely for him to come to Erebus and start fighting in it's wars...

[TheJopa]

Plus Sabathiel is now weak/exhausted.

IMO theme of Bannor is super disciplined, super trained units that in game translates to lots of promotions.

This works as a charm for Sabathiel. -25% XP cost for level ups is brilliant, giving you trained units fast. For other leader, this is not case, and Falamar also has this, taking away Bannor flavor.

Proposals:

1) Few Bannor unique buildings that give more free XP. Orc theme is hordes of cheap and weak units. Bannor should be also hordes but of more expensive and promoted ones. I think this would definitely work.

2) Edit it so that -25% XP cost is for Bannor civ, and not charismatic trait. So Falamar loses it, Capria gains it. Givesome other feat to charismatic to balance out.

3) New promotion that Bannor units start with, that gives +25% XP from combat (warlord promotion in BtS)

[kouji71]

Originally Posted by TheJopa

Plus Sabathiel is now weak/exhausted.

IMO theme of Bannor is super disciplined, super trained units that in game translates to lots of promotions.

This works as a charm for Sabathiel. -25% XP cost for level ups is brilliant, giving you trained units fast. For other leader, this is not case, and Falamar also has this, taking away Bannor flavor.

Proposals:

1) Few Bannor unique buildings that give more free XP. Orc theme is hordes of cheap and weak units. Bannor should be also hordes but of more expensive and promoted ones. I think this would definitely work.

2) Edit it so that -25% XP cost is for Bannor civ, and not charismatic trait. So Falamar loses it, Capria gains it. Givesome other feat to charismatic to balance out.

3) New promotion that Bannor units start with, that gives +25% XP from combat (warlord promotion in BtS)

i agree. this seems to go along very well with the bannor theme. or even a flat xp when built, to represent what they learned fighting in hell. and maybe a weaker version of demonslaying, 10 - 20% or so.

Something along the lines of highly skilled battle hardened troops.

[[to_xp]Gekko]

hey I quite like that proposal to make Charismatic Bannor only. right now even Auric Aulvin is charismatic btw.

[thomas.berubeg]

Sabathiel cannot enter creation. as Archangel to the god of Law, he is completly bound by the compact. he has enver been in creation, only in Junil's heaven and in Hell, leading the bannor

[MagisterCultuum]

Junil would never enter Creation. Although the Compact technically doesn't stop archangels from entering Creation, Sabathiel, as the archangel of law is bound to the strictest interpretation possible, and so cannot come here. He is also still exhausted and regaining his strength after fighting in hell. Technically the holy of holies in the Halls of Sabathiel is a small pocket dimension between Creation, where Sabathiel resides and where the high priests of the order may come to consult with him. (Of course, later on they stopped bothering consulting him at all.)



I'd like to have the Bannor start with Valor or Courage as a "default race."

I'd also like to have their priests and high priests (of the Order at least) able to cast Ring of Fire and Pillar of Fire, respectively, to show their old closeness to the fire sphere.

Thematically, I'm thinking that the Bannor would be strongly opposed to the extreme utilitarianism that an archmage must have. I'm thinking it may be good for them to be unable to build archmages, but still have mages (unlike the Khazad). They would need some special bonuses to overcome this though.




Kael has stated that in the original design for the Bannor they would have the ability to build lots of special fort like improvements that help defend against evil civs. I think this has pretty much been abandoned, but it might be reconsidered soon. When I get time to mod again I think I'l try to implement it. The ability to plant forts far away from your cities and have them spawn defenders whenever enemies get near seems useful.

[Imuratep]

I don't like removing Charismatic because it would deny this trait say much about the personality of this leader and for me by some way defines his flavor. Perhaps charismatic should do something different, but the trait should rest. Or leave charismatic as it is and nevertheless give the Bannor -25% level requirements to turn the Sabathiel led Bannor from avarage to broken . Magister Cultuum's suggestion is great. Perhaps give them both Valor and Courage. And the forts spawning units when enemies enter a tile nearby is also great. It wouldn't be too broken and would fit their flavor.

[TheJopa]

Originally Posted by Imuratep

I don't like removing Charismatic because it would deny this trait say much about the personality of this leader and for me by some way defines his flavor. Perhaps charismatic should do something different, but the trait should rest. Or leave charismatic as it is and nevertheless give the Bannor -25% level requirements to turn the Sabathiel led Bannor from avarage to broken . Magister Cultuum's suggestion is great. Perhaps give them both Valor and Courage. And the forts spawning units when enemies enter a tile nearby is also great. It wouldn't be too broken and would fit their flavor.

Yeah, I never actually suggested removing trait (besides Falamar not charismatic? No way!) But rather changing their effects.

[nadszyszkownik]

Originally Posted by MagisterCultuum

Thematically, I'm thinking that the Bannor would be strongly opposed to the extreme utilitarianism that an archmage must have. I'm thinking it may be good for them to be unable to build archmages, but still have mages (unlike the Khazad). They would need some special bonuses to overcome this though.

Errr, why would they be completely unable to build archmages? And why would they be opposed to utilitarianism? From what i read (don't remember where right now) those who kept their behavior to highest ideals during their trip trough hell didn't age and remained beautiful/handsome, those who didn't started degenerating , and so could be put to the sword if they would fall to low and start becoming dangerous to the whole. It's hard to imagine that none of them, or rather not all of them, would be shaken to the core by their experiences in Agares' realm. I'd guess many of them stopped thinking in terms of "I stand true to highest ideals because it's good" and along the line of "I Hold to highest ideals because I want to get a hell out of here, and I will even if I have to chop my way trough any fool who doesn't do the same". When being moral stops being about your believes and starts being ,in the very immediate moment, about what you don't want to become it does become somewhat utilitarian (even if not wholly so). This would also explain why did Bannor priests turn away from Sabathiel and Junil after getting out of hell- there was no immediate reason to keep their actions moral, so they let their less noble impulses, held at bay for centuries of battling trough hell, run loose while leaving the Code and moral behavior for the plebs -the commoners and lesser clergy. Of course they still believe they are the highest moral authorities keeping themselves to the highest standards and would readily burn any and every heretic and blasphemer daring to claim otherwise.

Hmm, wandered off a bit there. Anyway, so why be unable to get archmages?

[MagisterCultuum]

It isn't so easy to give out 2 racial promotions. One could come from a building or something instead.

I think I'll just give them Valor, but make Valor also provide immunity to fear and make the unit need less xp for promotions. That isn't hard to do, and I believe the xp discount would stack together with Charismatic. Needing only about a quarter of the xp other civs need would be a very big bonus. Probably big enough to warrant not letting them have Archmages.


From excerpts of Kael's D&D games we know that what separates an Archmage from a mage is not skill, but an unstoppable strength of will. They set their mind on something, and refuse to let anything, include atrocious violations of laws and morals, get in their way. They don't typically go out of the way to do harm, but they would murder the righteous without remorse if it helps to further their goals. I cannot see an archmage having a high regard for the Code of Junil. Also, the Bannor remember the time when all mages were evil, and they were the greatest enemies of these sorcerers. Magic itself is really breaking the rules that govern creation, in ways that only thr gods are supposed to be able to do. It is not looked upon favorably by the Bannor.

[[to_xp]Gekko]

lots of nice ideas... valor and/or courage as a racial promotion and fire spells readily available sound good. unique fort improvements with unique effect sounds outright awesome. spawning defenders, incenerating foes, you name it

[Broken Hawk]

Originally Posted by [to_xp]Gekko

lots of nice ideas... valor and/or courage as a racial promotion and fire spells readily available sound good. unique fort improvements with unique effect sounds outright awesome. spawning defenders, incenerating foes, you name it

I'll second that.

[Blackmantle]

Really like the idea of free racial promotion.

But! Valor (or an effect simmilar to it and have the promotion called something else which might be a better idea since then it doesn't replace Law 3 outright. And stackability whouldn't be totaly unbalanced for such a rather weak Tier 3 spell...) alone sounds neat enough imo (and also is far more important in terms of getting higher levels).
There are other sources for courage. One of them beeing the hope-spell donal lugh can cast... (or from royal guards at aristocracy + feudalism and from regular mana naturally.)

Also handing out courage for free whould devalue spirit-magic perhaps a bit much? Because it duplicates at least part of Spirit 2 and fully Spirit 1. Unlike Valor which just replaces the need for Law 3 (which the Bannor also start with anyways so it doesn't diminish another strategic choice and which offers a rather neat Level 2 Spell and an acceptable passive effect (The Level 1 spell is more important to AI right now because the AI rarely fields units with control-abilities right now) so it whould save the bannor 1 promotion for their Archmages and get the effect at the very start where it matters much more.)
Also the AI whould profit alot from it.
Also i think all to early immunity to fear whould devalue fear (which is not that common early or at least rather hard to get) a tad to much and diminish the advantage of civs who can field early nonfear- or nonliving units.


Also another small thing which whould result from such a change and seems very thematic: It whould allow the Bannor a much easier acess to a Unit of Level 15 than anyone else since the change of raiders-trait and thus much earlier acess to Brigit which is the non-fallen archangel of their old fallen patron god.

Also the Bannor of later generations lose their hardness a bit which whould imo further make it unflavorful to hand them immunity to fear by default...

[nadszyszkownik]

Originally Posted by MagisterCultuum

From excerpts of Kael's D&D games we know that what separates an Archmage from a mage is not skill, but an unstoppable strength of will. They set their mind on something, and refuse to let anything, include atrocious violations of laws and morals, get in their way. They don't typically go out of the way to do harm, but they would murder the righteous without remorse if it helps to further their goals. I cannot see an archmage having a high regard for the Code of Junil. Also, the Bannor remember the time when all mages were evil, and they were the greatest enemies of these sorcerers. Magic itself is really breaking the rules that govern creation, in ways that only thr gods are supposed to be able to do. It is not looked upon favorably by the Bannor.

Well, units in game are separated by their skills, not mindset so why not a Mage Who Is As Powerful As Any Archmage But Is Not A Crazed Psychopath That Would Stop At Nothing unit. I mean, I get the point, but the logic seems faulty. And what about Enion Logos, he's supposedly the guy because of whom entire armies retreat on their way to a city they wanted to attack simply because they find out he's in it right now. Seems pretty archmage-ish to me. Is he still a mage simply because he's not a psychopath, or maybe the goals archmages set for themselves might actually go directly in line with high morals, and they would not give up on their course? Anyway, Bannor archmages aren't that important to me and if the compensation is good enough I can roll with it. If it also adds more flavor I'd really love to roll with it.