SGOTM 14 - Ivan

[I. Larkin]

Originally Posted by DWetzel

Shouldn't your red number be 8 (6 + 2 for forest on growth to size 6?) That's where I originally was at in my calculations--which meant 7 + 6 + 8 + ... I was trying to get that to 7 + 6 + 9 (mining the BG and getting forest on growth) + 8. I think it can be done.

Perhaps we should seek additional opinions.

Ah, I see... (Shame on me); it is 8, and 21 after 3 but no way to get 9 and 5 fpt.
So we need 22 after 3... it is possible if we move both Russian workers to BG, ans add Zulu and Native
to help. 3/6+2/12+2/6=1 exactly(!)...

Edit:
But for City 1 it does not matter. The question is not when Settler Buildt, but when new City appear.

Without road at Ivory City 1 will come out 1 turn later. May be better to let Lisbon grow and operate at 5>7>5
and just proseed with workers "normally...."

So to have next 3 settlers 1 turn sooner each is something useful to do....

Third russian worker may do somehing else.

Can we decide about position of City 2? Eldar has another opinion, who else, and why?

[DWetzel]

Save is uploaded at end of 2550 BC turn. All is well, perhaps even better than well. I was right about the minutae of the settler factory MMing; it works at 4.5-6.5 and we got it via the 7-6-9-8 method I was suggesting, with no third chop.

Bought the third Russian worker for 30g + 5 gpt. Money will not be an issue though, we have over 200g in the kitty.

We have Iron Working as well, via a trade; iron is readily available at our westernmost city site (the one with the coastal/river/wheat), as well as a couple of additional sites.

Here's the save link on the server: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sg..._BC2550_01.SAV No time for screen shots, hopefully next player can put a few up before playing.


Second half of my turn log is in the spoiler box. I will edit in the first half later--I realized I put the save on the flash drive (played the last turns over lunch) but not my early turn log notes.

We get a settler next turn and Writing in 2, so I think this is a very good time to take a long huddle. The settler factory also requires MMing basically every turn as well as lux adjustments, so we need to be very careful and if everyone doesn't fully understand, speak now! It's delicate, but it works.

Spoiler:

SGOTM 14 notes (part 2)

2710 BC (part 2): I think I'm confident enough to go with Plan A for the slaves/workers to get the mine in time to make the 4-turner work.

Rename our two Russian slaves Mikhail and Fyodor for ease of recordkeeping.

Do some math on our science vs. gold output.

We have 122 gold on hand, 0 gpt.

Next turn we will have a granary and will be at -1 gpt.

We can borrow money at a rate of 16 for 1 gpt from Ottomans or 15/1 gpt from Arabia (attitude differences). Nobody else has any cash.

From Russia, 1gpt = 18g as far as a worker purchase.

Worker costs, loss per turn after granary, turns until bankrupt:

120g : -1 gpt : 2 turns
102 + 1 gpt : -2 gpt : 10 turns
84 + 2 gpt : -3 gpt : 12 turns
66 + 3 gpt : -4 gpt : 14 turns
48 + 4 gpt : -5 gpt : 14 turns
30 + 5 gpt : -6 gpt : 15 turns
12 + 6 gpt : -7 gpt : 15 turns

We can save a few coin and in most cases a turn by saving the lux slider for Writing. Against this, we'll lose a few beakers by having the lux slider at greater than zero for the settler factory UNLESS we can hook up our third lux (incense) fairly quickly. 10% lux costs 1 bpt right now, which is affordable, barely.

Writing is at 6 turns at 100%; Philo will be in 15 turns at 100% with a 5 beaker overrun at present rates (205 beaker cost, 14 bpt rate). We will have lux, but we will also have cities contributing some commerce. My guess is we can shave this down by 1 turn easily, and by 2 turns less easily. (17 bpt is basically 13 turns assuming we can hire one scientist somewhere for 1 turn, but we'll be close.

Bottom line: we need to get a little bit more cash along the way here, and we need that third luxury hooked up pretty fast.

I go for the Russian worker for 30g + 5 gpt. We are at 92g, -5 gpt. This will go to -6 gpt next turn. Re-raise slider to 100%.

Name new worker Leo. Move him to the BG (he'll start road while others are mining).

Move curragh; spot yet more borders.

IBT: Zulu warrior up north kills that barb. Ottoman spear moves away.

2670: Chop, granary built. No such luck on getting a BG there.

Mikhail and Fyodor start mine; they are joined by the other workers.

MP moves toward Lisbon.

Meet the Aztecs. They are down Masonry/Alpha/Wheel/Myst, have 35g and 4 cities. Sell them Mysticism for 35g. That should solve our money issues.

Our scout spots another barb, this time in the south, but he's 2 spaces away (yay for hills).

2630 BC: Lisbon grows to 5, gets 7 shields toward settler. Move forest > BG.

Move warrior in for 2nd MP.

Mine/road as planned.

2590: Everybody works. 6 shields toward settler (13 total). Double-check--mine WILL complete next turn.

Japan and Persia have Iron Working. Trade Alpha to Japan for IW (tried Myst to Persia, it was a no-go). We have iron near our western city site. Suggest making that a priority.

2550: Oporto warrior (now size 2) - worker. Oporto currently has only one 2 fpt square, so it's 20 turns to grow. This will change soon, but may as well spam out a worker.

Lisbon gets 9 shields toward settler as mine completes = 22 total. Move forest to unworked BG; will get settler next turn as expected. Me = smrt!!!

Sell Russia IW for 75 g + 1 gpt (all they have). Sell Ottomans IW for 50g.

Finish road. Move two slaves E onto other BG that our next city will work; also creates road toward horses.


Aaaaand, I'm spent.

[eldar]

Got it. I'll open up and take a look right now, throw out some ideas.

[I. Larkin]

Lisbon gets 9 shields toward settler as mine completes = 22 total. Move forest to unworked BG; will get settler next turn as expected. Me = smrt!!!

Exactly! Eldar up

[eldar]

Observations:

1. Sci can come down to 70% now. We need 22 beakers for Writing. This turn @ 70% we will get 12. Next turn we will get 10 (I checked by making two of Lisbon's pop temporarily into clowns - the non-commerce BG and the Wines).

2. Settler to Pink Dot / New City 2. This has good growth potential, immediate access to Iron, close to horse.

3. I will get 2 more Settlers during my set as well. 1st will go to New City 1. 2nd will head towards (?) New City 4 - slightly better growth potential than New City 3. I'm coming round to the idea of CxxxC spacing now as we are really aiming for domination so we need more tiles earlier.

4. Research after Writing - Philo @ Max. I will look out for opportune worker trades, chance to sell off cheap techs.

5. I expect demands for Writing. Right now I am inclined to *not* cave. We can chop a barracks in Oporto and start building Archers.

6. Worker management: we want a road to Oporto. I will task 3 slaves to this, leaving 1 native+1 slave to work on tile improvements for Lisbon. Road > Mine as commerce is more important right now. Oporto worker will start to road the Incense, and will be joined by road crew from Lisbon in time.

7. Build order for New City 2: Warrior->Worker or Curragh->Worker? Or Worker first if it only gets 1spt?

[I. Larkin]

It may be an idea to make embassies at Zulu and and Arabia. We are up IW and may ask help for IW if somebody demand Writing. We are "short of Workers" to cut barracks now. But we may pump some later from Lisbon.

[eldar]

I will check how much they cost once we have writing and can make embassies. I will work out if we can afford a max run at Philo and make both embassies. Cathy and Ottos are both likely to demand Writing.

[Othniel]

I prefer the pink dot too as our next city spot, primarily because it has the highest fpt potential and I think that is critical.

I think we really, really need more workers if we are going to do this CxxxC scheme. One of the main reasons I dislike the wider spread is that it takes more time to get each settler to its spot, meaning a greater time lag until that town is producing stuff, all the meanwhile it is eating up unit support if we don't have enough free slots. It's good we have some slaves, but we need more.

For that reason, I think I would have the next few cities build a worker as the first build. I would also contemplate not mining any more tiles around Lisbon just yet, but rather use the workers to road toward the NE (toward New City site 4) to get that settler up there faster.

Unless I'm mistaken, mining the tiles around Lisbon are unimportant unless we get the combo factory up and running. To do the combo factory, I think we will need to be at sizes 5-7 to have enough shields. Plus then we will need a greater combo of lux tax, luxeries, and MP. So I wonder if we are better off doing a simple 4-turner for say, 3 more cycles and then getting the combo factory going. That gives us enough time to hook luxes and build MP. And that way we can use our workers for roads right now. Just a thought.

A curragh from the pink dot would be nice soon, but I think a worker is more important. Frankly, I wonder how many more contacts we will get on our landmass before we need suicide runs. Maybe a scout would be a better choice in that case, just to finish exploring our area? Maybe let's pump a scout out of Oporto once the next warrior is built.

We will definitely need all the contacts we can get for the turn when Philo comes in, so this is a really tight balance of priorities, workers vs contacts.

By the way, are we planning on doing the Monarch sling no matter what, or only if no one has CoL? I know we will have non-stop warfare coming up, but I'm not sure I like the thought of going Monarch.

FWIW, on the CxxxC subject, I don't really see how it "helps" to use wider spacing when we are going for domination. We need to get our war machine going and wider spacing gives us more land to plunk down settlers before we have to fight, nothing more. Admittedly, that can be important, but it has it's drawbacks. So, I'd like to see us space things such that we can fit in more cities in between our initial spots. For instance, we could easily squeeze in a city 2SE of New City 4. That would make it CxC to New City 4, but CxxxC to Oporto and Lisbon, and have it be on fresh water too.

Oh, last thought, are we planning on doing anything with the ToA or any other wonders for that matter? I kinda say no, personally. The ToA won't really work because we will probably need Astronomy to finish this domination. Also, for other wonders such as the SoZ or GLight, we can just hope they are built by neighbors. I don't see much value from building any, but I throw the thoughts out for discussion anyway.

[DWetzel]

Originally Posted by eldar

Observations:

1. Sci can come down to 70% now. We need 22 beakers for Writing. This turn @ 70% we will get 12. Next turn we will get 10 (I checked by making two of Lisbon's pop temporarily into clowns - the non-commerce BG and the Wines).

2. Settler to Pink Dot / New City 2. This has good growth potential, immediate access to Iron, close to horse.

3. I will get 2 more Settlers during my set as well. 1st will go to New City 1. 2nd will head towards (?) New City 4 - slightly better growth potential than New City 3. I'm coming round to the idea of CxxxC spacing now as we are really aiming for domination so we need more tiles earlier.

4. Research after Writing - Philo @ Max. I will look out for opportune worker trades, chance to sell off cheap techs.

5. I expect demands for Writing. Right now I am inclined to *not* cave. We can chop a barracks in Oporto and start building Archers.

6. Worker management: we want a road to Oporto. I will task 3 slaves to this, leaving 1 native+1 slave to work on tile improvements for Lisbon. Road > Mine as commerce is more important right now. Oporto worker will start to road the Incense, and will be joined by road crew from Lisbon in time.

7. Build order for New City 2: Warrior->Worker or Curragh->Worker? Or Worker first if it only gets 1spt?

1. Looks fine, but be careful to take into account lux slider adjustment. Right now we need the 10% for exactly one turn per settler cycle--when Lisbon is size 6. I'd hate to have a rounding error take hold. To be on the safe side if it takes the "wrong" tile from Lisbon (not that it should), leave an extra beaker in if you can unless you're really confident.

2. I'd actually grab New City 1 first. Time to get to each site is the same, NC1 grabs more tiles (including a roaded BG) faster, and it's already on our road network so it will not need MP as it grows. It is also more in the path of our enemies, so blocks off more of their expansion. I doubt anyone will send a settler to NC2 in your turnset.

3. See above, but I'd go NC1, NC2, then in the direction of NC4. I'd put one city ON the horse that is up there, one N-N-NW-NW of Lisbon, and we can in-fill another city later, either on the interior of the lake or one space farther.

4. Yes and yes. It won't come up in your turnset, but we should discuss what to take in the event that we can't get Monarchy or Republic. Go for CoL? Construction (if we can get Math)? Lit?

5. I cringe. I'd not cave on Russia (we owe them cash), but others would be a tougher decision.

6. Agree with the road to Oporto/horses/incense plan. I'd send the native + a slave to road back to NC2 and then create connections to NC4.

7. Curragh first, clearly, if 2 spt. If only one, then a worker, but I have to think it will get two. After curragh I'm not convinced another worker is a good idea--either a warrior for MP or another curragh would be my choice. I'd probably just stick Oporto on warrior MP duty for quite a while.

[DWetzel]

I crossposted (obviously). I think we share a lot of the same questions.

[eldar]

Hmm, we have two differing opinions there. NC2 is certainly a better site than NC1 in terms of what it brings us. It only needs 1 tile to be roaded in order to connect up and we will be getting a worker out before its size becomes an issue. We also found NC2 1 turn earlier than NC1.

We might want to consider getting a single worker out of Lisbon once we've done the first settler. Somehow that just seems "right". This worker can start on the road to NC2 and will also then be able to start irrigating the wheat right away.

[I. Larkin]

I prefer the pink dot too as our next city spot, primarily because it has the highest fpt potential and I think that is critical.

Yes, main reason that roads there almost done. We may transfer workers there.
I almost think to move it Back 1 NE, but Iron is a good priority.

I think we really, really need more workers if we are going to do this CxxxC scheme. One of the main reasons I dislike the wider spread is that it takes more time to get each settler to its spot, meaning a greater time lag until that town is producing stuff, all the meanwhile it is eating up unit support if we don't have enough free slots. It's good we have some slaves, but we need more.

That was dictated by AIs. Very probably this 5 Cities is All that AI will let us build, but we may build something on our land.

For that reason, I think I would have the next few cities build a worker as the first build. I would also contemplate not mining any more tiles around Lisbon just yet, but rather use the workers to road toward the NE (toward New City site 4) to get that settler up there faster.

Good idea, but for 2 spt we pump warrior first. Scout and Curragh are good, but we need some “minimal defense” now.

Unless I'm mistaken, mining the tiles around Lisbon are unimportant unless we get the combo factory up and running. To do the combo factory, I think we will need to be at sizes 5-7 to have enough shields. Plus then we will need a greater combo of lux tax, luxeries, and MP. So I wonder if we are better off doing a simple 4-turner for say, 3 more cycles and then getting the combo factory going. That gives us enough time to hook luxes and build MP. And that way we can use our workers for roads right now. Just a thought.

You are right and it is a good thoughts. We now build roads only and then pump some workers from Lisbon to make mines. Really, if we want workers better to get it from Granary City. I’d like to have second Granary, but we do not have time.

A curragh from the pink dot would be nice soon, but I think a worker is more important. Frankly, I wonder how many more contacts we will get on our landmass before we need suicide runs. Maybe a scout would be a better choice in that case, just to finish exploring our area? Maybe let's pump a scout out of Oporto once the next warrior is built.

Eldar note long ago that 60% Archy do not need Suicide run. We may miss 1 or 2 AIs but it is not that important.

We will definitely need all the contacts we can get for the turn when Philo comes in, so this is a really tight balance of priorities, workers vs contacts.

I think before Phylo we will make 5-8 contacts at max but tipicaly our Native AI so well ahead that new contacts are not that important.

By the way, are we planning on doing the Monarch sling no matter what, or only if no one has CoL? I know we will have non-stop warfare coming up, but I'm not sure I like the thought of going Monarch.

“IF” CoL will be available we may go to Republic and conduct war in “different way”. But as nobody has writing yet. So “it can’t be”. The question is what if nobody make Poly in next 11-12 turns?

FWIW, on the CxxxC subject, I don't really see how it "helps" to use wider spacing when we are going for domination. We need to get our war machine going and wider spacing gives us more land to plunk down settlers before we have to fight, nothing more. Admittedly, that can be important, but it has it's drawbacks. So, I'd like to see us space things such that we can fit in more cities in between our initial spots. For instance, we could easily squeeze in a city 2SE of New City 4. That would make it CxC to New City 4, but CxxxC to Oporto and Lisbon, and have it be on fresh water too.

Yes, I did CxxxC because that was best spots we have nearby, the rest may be any. I even can consider City IBT Lisbon and C4, say.

Oh, last thought, are we planning on doing anything with the ToA or any other wonders for that matter? I kinda say no, personally. The ToA won't really work because we will probably need Astronomy to finish this domination. Also, for other wonders such as the SoZ or GLight, we can just hope they are built by neighbors. I don't see much value from building any, but I throw the thoughts out for discussion anyway.

ToA is terribly expensive, but to capture it at our land will be good. I think Galleys can reach all we need for domination. The reason to have an astronomy is our Golden age.
I could consider Colosus/Lighthouse for that, but again, we have no time now.

[I. Larkin]

Originally Posted by eldar

Hmm, we have two differing opinions there. NC2 is certainly a better site than NC1 in terms of what it brings us. It only needs 1 tile to be roaded in order to connect up and we will be getting a worker out before its size becomes an issue. We also found NC2 1 turn earlier than NC1.

We might want to consider getting a single worker out of Lisbon once we've done the first settler. Somehow that just seems "right". This worker can start on the road to NC2 and will also then be able to start irrigating the wheat right away.

I agree with this scheme. I rate NC1 and NC2 approximately equal, but settler will get to NC2 1 turn sooner. Then when road to Nc1 will be ready Nc1 will go in 2 turns. I don't think that AI will run to NC1 next 5 turns.

[I. Larkin]

Originally Posted by DWetzel

1. Looks fine, but be careful to take into account lux slider adjustment. Right now we need the 10% for exactly one turn per settler cycle--when Lisbon is size 6. I'd hate to have a rounding error take hold. To be on the safe side if it takes the "wrong" tile from Lisbon (not that it should), leave an extra beaker in if you can unless you're really confident.

2. I'd actually grab New City 1 first. Time to get to each site is the same, NC1 grabs more tiles (including a roaded BG) faster, and it's already on our road network so it will not need MP as it grows. It is also more in the path of our enemies, so blocks off more of their expansion. I doubt anyone will send a settler to NC2 in your turnset.

3. See above, but I'd go NC1, NC2, then in the direction of NC4. I'd put one city ON the horse that is up there, one N-N-NW-NW of Lisbon, and we can in-fill another city later, either on the interior of the lake or one space farther.

4. Yes and yes. It won't come up in your turnset, but we should discuss what to take in the event that we can't get Monarchy or Republic. Go for CoL? Construction (if we can get Math)? Lit?

5. I cringe. I'd not cave on Russia (we owe them cash), but others would be a tougher decision.

6. Agree with the road to Oporto/horses/incense plan. I'd send the native + a slave to road back to NC2 and then create connections to NC4.

7. Curragh first, clearly, if 2 spt. If only one, then a worker, but I have to think it will get two. After curragh I'm not convinced another worker is a good idea--either a warrior for MP or another curragh would be my choice. I'd probably just stick Oporto on warrior MP duty for quite a while.

1. agree with that.
2. Wine trough the river, so it will more turns to NC1.
3. Ottos is our main thread. I am not sure, that Nc4 is not "far away. " But spot is "so good".
4. Yes, and yes.... Never had research that fast.
5. Agree with that. Embassies will give some information.
6. yes, but I'd pump worker from Lisbon before NC3 NC4
7. Not sure. We will see Celts an so what? But Warrior worker, curragh is what we can do.

[eldar]

I think we're heading towards consensus on NC2 first.

Do I build a Settler for NC1 before a worker from Lisbon, or go settler (about to finish, NC2) -> worker (road to NC2) -> settler (NC1)?

[I. Larkin]

Originally Posted by eldar

I think we're heading towards consensus on NC2 first.

Do I build a Settler for NC1 before a worker from Lisbon, or go settler (about to finish, NC2) -> worker (road to NC2) -> settler (NC1)?

Up to you. Situation with many workers and river so confusive, you will see better...

[eldar]

I like the idea of a worker now, it is roading+irrigating which is relatively quick. As I said before, it somehow seems the "right" thing to do, also it will get NC2 connected & growing at +3fpt quicker.

[DWetzel]

Originally Posted by I. Larkin

Wine trough the river, so it will more turns to NC1.

No, it should be the same. Keep in mind the road will be completed next turn, so settler would move first to wines and second to NC1 site. The other way would be 3SE on one turn then one more SE to NC2 site.

There may be other perfectly good reasons to go to NC2 first, but this isn't it.

[eldar]

Originally Posted by DWetzel

No, it should be the same. Keep in mind the road will be completed next turn, so settler would move first to wines and second to NC1 site. The other way would be 3SE on one turn then one more SE to NC2 site.

There may be other perfectly good reasons to go to NC2 first, but this isn't it.

Nope, the road will not be finished next turn. There isn't currently a road being built. Those two slaves to the north of the site for NC1 have obviously just moved there, and will take 3 turns to build a road.

So the settler will have to move 1S (across river to wines), 2E (to tile where slaves are now) then 1S again to get to NC1 site. Then found city the next turn.

For the NC2 site, it will go 3SW, then SW, then found the city.

[DWetzel]

Yes, SW, not SE, for NC2. That's what I meant.

Sequence for settler/road COULD go as follows.

Next turn: settler to wines, two slaves start road, other workers/slaves follow.

Following turn: Workers/slaves finish road, (it will insta-finish once we put enough into it), settler uses road to get to NC1. The first slaves will be freed to move to horses (or somewhere else if desired).

This does entail our workers being in a funky bunch for a little while longer, but it would be worth it. I think that would also give time to get back to NC2 to road that. That road is in place to get there in 2 turns regardless though--it's just a matter of whether the town is connected or not.