Brigit, Odio, and Alignments

[KillerClowns]

Since the Art Team Blog is getting devoured by this debate, it seemed time to make a new thread, as per the suggestions of MagisterCultuum and orangelex44.
As a recap:

Originally Posted by MagisterCultuum

Personally, I still think that Brigit_held should be removed, and that freeing Brigit should be handled though an event like the one that triggers when you reach Letum Frigus. I also tend to think that she should not join Evil civs, and perhaps only join Good. This should be balanced by adding Odio to the game and only letting Evil (or non-Good, if neutrals can free Brigit) civs free him.

Originally Posted by Annex

It does kind of goes against the lore to let Brigit join an evil civ. If she refused to fall with her master, why should she end up joining an evil civ anyway? Unless she is somehow brainwashed.

But what if you get her when you're good, but then turn evil? Would she abandon you?

Originally Posted by KillerClowns

I've always thought there should be two Brigits. Brigit and Fallen Brigit; the latter replaces the Holy damage with Unholy, and presumably Angel with Demon, but is otherwise statistically equivalent. Brigit goes to Good and Neutral, her fallen version to Evil.

Originally Posted by MagisterCultuum

Having her abandon you would make sense. It might be better if she, like religious heroes, became buildable by civs that meet the requirements (Good) when she abandons someone.

I can't really picture Brigit falling. If she adandoned her goddess for turning evil, why would she fall to keep serving evil mortals. I'd much rather let evil civs have Odio.

This is kind of getting off topic though. If we want to keep talking about Brigit(/Odio), we should probably make a new thread for that purpose.

Originally Posted by [to_xp]Gekko

my vote goes to good civs only freeing Brigit, and evil civs only freeing Odio

I guess neutral civs should be able to get both?

Originally Posted by kumquatelvis

I dunno, after who knows how long trapped like that she could easily have gone mad. Or regretted her decision to fight against her own god.

Originally Posted by rusty217

But if she now wished to fall then it would most likely be her own god that would release her, rather than some random mortal...

Originally Posted by Fafnir13

It would probably violate the compact to reach into the world and free her.
I like how, as it is, you can make up your own story for why she's serving you. Goes along nicely with Kael's repeated statements on how each game is left open to however you want to play it.

Originally Posted by xienwolf

I don't see why Neutral would get access to either Angel if alignment is required. Get off the damn fence if you want to recruit an angel!

Originally Posted by jimi12

why would there be alignment constrictions? bhall used to tell agares she would never fall, then look at what she did. Just because brigit refused to fall initially doesnt mean she didnt change her mind in the ring of carcer.

As for Odio, he doesnt seem too smart in the first place, so him being ruled by a good civ that could brainwash him, like keelyn and her demons, would be ok by me.

Originally Posted by rusty217

I think it should be religion restrictions rather than alignment, Brigit should not be ashen veil, and odio shouldn't be runes of kilmorph. No amount of brain washing is going to get him to serve the underlings of the god who originally put him in his current state...

And Brigit should also be anti Illian, it would be weird for the archangel of fire to serve the god of ice...

Originally Posted by jimi12

I could understand Odio not wanting to be under a RoK civ, but bhall and mulcarn are now on the same side so i dont think it would be that big of a deal.

[Love]

Just a subscription.

I think that brigit shouldn't be freed by any evil civ and Odio by any RoK civ, but it will make him less powerful than brigit for balance reason.

There.

[MagisterCultuum]

The way I've already implemented it in my version, Odio can be freed by any neutral or evil civ, but not until they learn the Rage technology. The spell that frees him also causes the caster to cast Enrage and Earthquake, and of course destroys the unique feature that held him. Odio himself can also cast Rage. He has strength 6/0 + 3 unholy +3 poison +2 body affinity. He starts with Demon, Hero, Flying, Blitz, Cannibalize, and Crazed. He has a small chance of spawning Ira from combat. He looks like a giant Brujah for now.



Brigit_held is gone, and Brigit is instead created by an event triggered by entering The Ring of Carcer, in the same way that the letum Frigus event is triggered (I haven't tested it yet though). Only Good civs get the option to free her. This option also causes a golden age. Brigit's has 7 strength +3 holy + 2 fire affinity. She has Angel, Hero, Flying, Valor, March, Blitz and Crown of Briliance, and gets Crown of Brilliance back after combat (the way Losha gets immortality). She can also cast Pillar of Fire. I haven't updated since patch c, so she still has her old graphics, but larger.

[Verdian]

Could someone post some info about Odio, so we (I) can get a bearing on what he should do? I know he broke the compact by coming into creation, and Kilmorph came down and turned him to stone to stop him. But why was he rampaging, and who was he the angel of? Does he have a surname, like "the Shining"?

Thanks.

[MagisterCultuum]

I don't know if Odio had an epitaph or nickname like that. His name obviously means Hatred though (well, Odium does, Odio would be the dative or ablative for of the word).

He is the Archangel of Aeron, God of Strength/Body/Rage/Base Emotions/Physical Passions/Hatred. His sphere drives him to despise and seek to destroy everyone, without any real reason.



Odio did not break the compact. He merely refused to abide by the temporary ceasefire that was called in order that the Compact could be negotiated.

Originally Posted by Civilopedia entry for Odios Prison

When the gods met at the seven pines they called a truce in the godswar. The divine armies withdrew to their sacred lands and humanity had a hint of the peaceful times that would come. But the greatest of Aeron's angels, the archangel Odio, ignored his lord's command. He was given over to his bloodlust and lead an army of Ira into the lands of Kilmorph.

"What means the words of one who does not rule his own home? If Aeron is to share our council he must withdraw his ara from Odio"

The gods agreed with Kilmorph and Aeron's protection was removed from the raging Odio, in that instant the queen of gems reached out and pulled Odio into the earth. There she left him transformed to stone, eternal testament to the power of the gods and cost of defying their will.

[Verdian]

Very nice, thank you. Would it be possible to let him keep his Unique Feature aura, have it only effect his allies, but also give it a chance to add the enraged promotion to anyone within range? Then you could give him the hero and angel (or demon) promotions with a strength similar to Brigits.

Also, limiting Brigit to Good and Odio to Evil sounds like a fine plan. Leave the neutrals out of it, as I agree that they should have to take sides to get such a unit. Perhaps Odio and Brigit should be a pair of Unique Features, always appearing on the same map, for balance reasons?

[MagisterCultuum]

Originally Posted by Verdian

Would it be possible to let him keep his Unique Feature aura, have it only effect his allies, but also give it a chance to add the enraged promotion to anyone within range?

I don't understand what you're asking.

[KillerClowns]

Originally Posted by MagisterCultuum

I don't understand what you're asking.

I think he means, would it be possible for Odio to act as a moving Odio's Prison (providing defense bonus), but only for allies? And further, would it be possible for units in that area, friend or foe, to have a chance of becoming enraged?

[MagisterCultuum]

I don't think letting a unit provide defensive bonuses like improvments could be possible wihtout some major SDK changes.

He could easily give enraged though a spell or a PyPerTurn effect.

[Arwon]

Originally Posted by MagisterCultuum

I don't know if Odio had an epitaph or nickname like that. His name obviously means Hatred though (well, Odium does, Odio would be the dative or ablative for of the word).

Or he could just be Spanish...

[Verdian]

Thank you for translating for me, KillerClowns. I actually thought Odio's Prision gave a flat out % bonus, and did not realize it was defensive only. Could Odio just give a +10% (or whatever Odio's Prision gives) promotion to all allies within range?

[Imuratep]

I don't think it's fair to allow Neutral civs to get both. Neutral at my opinion is right now anyway the best alignement (Druids, especially Dwarven Druids, as a kind of buildable Archmages are much stronger compared to units that have just a high basic strength.)
IMHO good and evil could get a boost by giving them something unique. Either neutral could get something unique too or could get neither Odio nor Brigit.
In general I think it's quite a pity that in FFH we have no alignement graduations. So Brigit could get rescued if you are absolutely good and Odio if you are absolutely evil, but to reach the pure Good/ pure Evil you have to do something that really fits the alignement as extinguishing all cities of your best friend for evil (for good nothing occurs to me now ).

[MagisterCultuum]

Originally Posted by Verdian

Thank you for translating for me, KillerClowns. I actually thought Odio's Prision gave a flat out % bonus, and did not realize it was defensive only. Could Odio just give a +10% (or whatever Odio's Prision gives) promotion to all allies within range?

Giving him a spell or a PyPerTurnEffect could do this.

The way I have it now he has the Enrage spell, which gives out Burning Blood to units within a 2 (was 1, but I changed it) tile range. This is a 20% combat boost, +1 moves, blitz, immunity to fear, and a chance to turn the unit barbarian.

[Skitters]

Alternatively what if Neutral players could release Odio / Brigit, but in doing so they would be making the decision to convert them to Evil / Good? (would presumably need a warning dialogue box)

If a civ later changes alignment (whether it be Good to Evil/Neutral or Evil to Good/Neutral), then perhaps then Odio/ Brigit would switch allegiance to the strongest civ of the correct alignment?

[mahazel]

If a civ later changes alignment (whether it be Good to Evil/Neutral or Evil to Good/Neutral), then perhaps then Odio/ Brigit would switch allegiance to the strongest civ of the correct alignment?

They should disband like religious heroes, and could be buildable to anyone with correct alignment.

[Mailbox]

Is the Avatar of Wrath Aeron's new archangel? More of a lore question but I'm fairly curious, I know he summons Ira.

[[to_xp]Gekko]

no, he is Camulos' archangel. quite fitting

[Fenboy]

Originally Posted by Mailbox

Is the Avatar of Wrath Aeron's new archangel? More of a lore question but I'm fairly curious, I know he summons Ira.

Camulos' actually.

Edit: ninja'd hehe

It appears Aeron has never appointed a replacement for Odio. For that matter, nor have Bhall or Sucellus, and Cernunnos hasn't appointed his own archangel (yet).

[Mailbox]

I thought Loki was Camulos's archangel?

[rusty217]

Originally Posted by Mailbox

I thought Loki was Camulos's archangel?

Loki's not an angel at all, just a man that works as one of the Balseraphs clown/spy things...