st.lucifer
King
Guys, I've taken the liberty of creating a new thread for this - put any bugs, feedback on games, and suggestions on starting techs and units in this thread. Thanks for your help!
RFC Europe playtesting feedback thread
- Thread starter st.lucifer
- Start date
This mod starts after the barbarian invasions in the Roman Empire, but the barbarians didn't razed all the cities. Wouldn't it be better to place a couple of Roman Cities on the map as Indipendents that would flip to upcoming nations similar to the French, German and Spain spawn in RFC. This way, new civs would start with a couple of cities and less underground code penalties could be given to old civs.
As for the Dutch. They were a nation that declared independence. They didn't found new cities. I think they should start with a city (or cities) that has been build by the Independents, Germans, Burgundians or Spain. Again, they don't have to start from scratch and need less new civ bonuses. I think the same should be done for Venezia and Genoa.
This could be the starting situation with all the civs that we don't have as independents. Maybe Londinium should be added.
As for the Dutch. They were a nation that declared independence. They didn't found new cities. I think they should start with a city (or cities) that has been build by the Independents, Germans, Burgundians or Spain. Again, they don't have to start from scratch and need less new civ bonuses. I think the same should be done for Venezia and Genoa.
This could be the starting situation with all the civs that we don't have as independents. Maybe Londinium should be added.
jessiecat
Divine Monarch
I agree with you about starting cities but the map is not finalised yet. And shouldn't this be on the discussion thread? This one is for test reports.
3Miro
Deity
Note to everyone: as of right now, the only nation that have been discussed for starting techs are Burgundy trough Spain, no one else has adequate starting techs. Use the WB.
Only the Byzantines start with semi-adequate staring units, everyone else starts with a settler or two and some warriors. Most nations would also start with some missionaries. Use the WB for now.
There are some stability issues still. I am working on understanding all of the specific dynamics, it might take some time.
The Hungarian UB would have special effect, but it is not coded yet ( I am not sure how it would be documented, probably separate in the Civilopedia).
Independent cities would be eventually added in most of Europe. Rome right now starts independent, but in distant future that would be replaced by the Papal State.
Enjoy the work so far.
Only the Byzantines start with semi-adequate staring units, everyone else starts with a settler or two and some warriors. Most nations would also start with some missionaries. Use the WB for now.
There are some stability issues still. I am working on understanding all of the specific dynamics, it might take some time.
The Hungarian UB would have special effect, but it is not coded yet ( I am not sure how it would be documented, probably separate in the Civilopedia).
Independent cities would be eventually added in most of Europe. Rome right now starts independent, but in distant future that would be replaced by the Papal State.
Enjoy the work so far.
st.lucifer
King
There's a map attached to the wiki which shows a proposed list of independent cities. It doesn't have names attached, but you can probably figure them out from the placements. It's not a finalized map, but we're going to use some variant of it - and different cities will appear at different times, just as Sur, Samarkand, and the rest appear on the RFC map. In some cases, civs will probably be working primarily from a map full of independents (France, Spain); in others, they'll be building their own (Hungary, Poland, etc.)
Just a couple of balance comments on having sat through the long wait time for the Netherlands to spawn:
1. Way, way, way too many civs collapse, including many that hadn't done anything obvious to induce their demise. Arabia, Bulgaria, Kiev, Germany, Burgundy, France, Cordoba and Spain were all gone by the time the Netherlands spawned. Stability needs to be boosted considerably.
2. Catholicism doesn't spread much. Europe is overwhelmingly Orthodox with some pockets of Islam outside of ex-Arabia. Catholicism exists only in Genoa, Venice and Venetian-controlled Rome. This is probably because the Byzantines tend to spam Orthodox missionaries while independent Rome doesn't do the same with Catholic missionaries (obviously). Additionally, the large number of Orthodox Byzantine cities tend to overwhelm the single Catholic Rome in terms of the odds of a religion spreading to a new city. The spread rate of Catholicism should be massively increased to make up for this.
1. Way, way, way too many civs collapse, including many that hadn't done anything obvious to induce their demise. Arabia, Bulgaria, Kiev, Germany, Burgundy, France, Cordoba and Spain were all gone by the time the Netherlands spawned. Stability needs to be boosted considerably.
2. Catholicism doesn't spread much. Europe is overwhelmingly Orthodox with some pockets of Islam outside of ex-Arabia. Catholicism exists only in Genoa, Venice and Venetian-controlled Rome. This is probably because the Byzantines tend to spam Orthodox missionaries while independent Rome doesn't do the same with Catholic missionaries (obviously). Additionally, the large number of Orthodox Byzantine cities tend to overwhelm the single Catholic Rome in terms of the odds of a religion spreading to a new city. The spread rate of Catholicism should be massively increased to make up for this.
Jet
No, no, please. Please.
- Joined
- Mar 16, 2006
- Messages
- 2,419
Tried Burgundy. France declared for no good reason, then collapsed when I razed a city defended by warriors. Everybody should start with Archers I think. When Germany declared for Frieburg on spawn, my stability dropped badly and Frieburg went independent, and I collapsed a bit later. Not sure if anything in the mod was amiss or not.
Tried Venice, built a few cities, got bored. Get declared on by Poland for no good reason, although I did have Hungary as a vassal.
* New civs vassalize to existing ones too readily. Civs were vassalizing and un-vassalizing a lot. That could have been OK but the reasons didn't seem realistic.
* the papal state behavior was weird, Venice started at war with it. It felt odd not having it as a diplomatic player. Also it appeared to have no metal, so it was building just cats and archers. In general the AI seems to do odd things with catapults when it has no metal. Maybe Axemen and Spearmen could be built without metal.
* the tech tree is obviously still skeletal, so no comment yet, except that lumber mills are too powerful
Tried Venice, built a few cities, got bored. Get declared on by Poland for no good reason, although I did have Hungary as a vassal.
* New civs vassalize to existing ones too readily. Civs were vassalizing and un-vassalizing a lot. That could have been OK but the reasons didn't seem realistic.
* the papal state behavior was weird, Venice started at war with it. It felt odd not having it as a diplomatic player. Also it appeared to have no metal, so it was building just cats and archers. In general the AI seems to do odd things with catapults when it has no metal. Maybe Axemen and Spearmen could be built without metal.
* the tech tree is obviously still skeletal, so no comment yet, except that lumber mills are too powerful
Okay, I played France until about 1200s.
The tech rate is a crawl. This may be because there is no way to open borders or trade techs early on (or maybe at all?).
France's land area around Paris seems sparse. It has no special resouces in its big cross, but there does just seem to be fewer resources in general as compared to RFC, so this may be intended, and alright given that there's a lot more land area.
Catholicism does not spread.
Civic options need to be spread around. The first full tier of civic options seem to all be at the Feudalism tech. This took me as France about 200 turns to even get to. I probably could have done it in 100 if I went straight for it, but I'd like to see civic options much sooner.
Independent cities! I saw England spawn, and I saw their spawn area envelop Brittany, but of course, I didn't put a city there, so nothing flipped. Indy cities will help the tech rate too.
There were a few declarations of war by Cordoba and Venice, but I never once saw an enemy troop. The AI needs to be tweaked on their wars.
The tech rate is a crawl. This may be because there is no way to open borders or trade techs early on (or maybe at all?).
France's land area around Paris seems sparse. It has no special resouces in its big cross, but there does just seem to be fewer resources in general as compared to RFC, so this may be intended, and alright given that there's a lot more land area.
Catholicism does not spread.
Civic options need to be spread around. The first full tier of civic options seem to all be at the Feudalism tech. This took me as France about 200 turns to even get to. I probably could have done it in 100 if I went straight for it, but I'd like to see civic options much sooner.
Independent cities! I saw England spawn, and I saw their spawn area envelop Brittany, but of course, I didn't put a city there, so nothing flipped. Indy cities will help the tech rate too.
There were a few declarations of war by Cordoba and Venice, but I never once saw an enemy troop. The AI needs to be tweaked on their wars.
3Miro
Deity
Thanks for the input:
Stability is being tweaked right now, hopefully something meaningful would be worked out soon. I still have to understand the empire size dynamics.
Catholicism problem could be solved with Catholic Missionaries for France, Burgundy, Venice, Spain and maybe a few other.
The somewhat "strange" wars are just a feature of RFC, every now and then the AI is forced into war.
Tech cost is right now arbitrary and yes civic options would have to be spread more evenly.
We should add the option for Open Borders, that would help trade and stability.
Stability is being tweaked right now, hopefully something meaningful would be worked out soon. I still have to understand the empire size dynamics.
Catholicism problem could be solved with Catholic Missionaries for France, Burgundy, Venice, Spain and maybe a few other.
The somewhat "strange" wars are just a feature of RFC, every now and then the AI is forced into war.
Tech cost is right now arbitrary and yes civic options would have to be spread more evenly.
We should add the option for Open Borders, that would help trade and stability.
micbic
Optimistic Pessimist
Played as Hungary, one in Viceroy and one in Monarch, and have to make some comments
1) When you wanna talk to a civ, you can trade only with those having a state religion.
2) I don't know why, but Burgundy collapses very easily. BTW, collapses shouldn't be so sharp, eg the most away cities first, just to give a notice that collapse comes
3) Spanish nations are the strongest, except Byzantium. What surprised me is that they didn't be in war at no case whatsoever
4) Byzantium is not that invincible whatsoever. At a point, it was vassalized by Arabia. Then Arabia collapsed.
5) Bulgaria is kinda strong too. Until it collapsed, of course
6) Kievan Rus always becomes a Bulgarian vassal
7) BTW, Russian and Kievan settler maps need much work
8) Tech trading... (map trading is however enabled)
9) Vassalization is easier than it should. In a case, Spain had 3 vassals, including Muscowy
10) I don't think Hungarian core was at nowaday Serbia, perhaps should be moved 2-3 tiles north.
Hoping stability, open borders and tech rate problems are soon solved
1) When you wanna talk to a civ, you can trade only with those having a state religion.
2) I don't know why, but Burgundy collapses very easily. BTW, collapses shouldn't be so sharp, eg the most away cities first, just to give a notice that collapse comes
3) Spanish nations are the strongest, except Byzantium. What surprised me is that they didn't be in war at no case whatsoever
4) Byzantium is not that invincible whatsoever. At a point, it was vassalized by Arabia. Then Arabia collapsed.
5) Bulgaria is kinda strong too. Until it collapsed, of course
6) Kievan Rus always becomes a Bulgarian vassal
7) BTW, Russian and Kievan settler maps need much work
8) Tech trading... (map trading is however enabled)
9) Vassalization is easier than it should. In a case, Spain had 3 vassals, including Muscowy
10) I don't think Hungarian core was at nowaday Serbia, perhaps should be moved 2-3 tiles north.
Hoping stability, open borders and tech rate problems are soon solved
st.lucifer
King
Feel free to add in resources to the map - the resource placement in the current version isn't close to a finished product. We've got more resources to add to the mod, so I hadn't done a full update yet. Sorry for the inconvenience.
3Miro
Deity
Hungarian code touches only a small part of modern Serbia. Northern part of modern Serbia was heavily contested between Bulgaria and Hungary in the Middle Ages with Belgrade changing hand several times. The first Serbian country (Tzar Stephan Dushan 14 Century) was somewhat to the south, approximately where Kosovo is today.
3Miro
Deity
Use WB to give yourself more units. Staring units are not there yet.
Try to guess...
It's going to be a new type of terrain just as the jungles are going to be marshes...
jessiecat
Divine Monarch
I know. Its just supposed to be placeholders for moorland if we ever find the art for it. Just use Worldbuilder and grass all the ice over. It'll be fine. I live 10 miles from Bodmin Moor in Cornwall and it doesn't look like the Arctic here at all, I assure you.
st.lucifer
King
Go ahead and put them in; they'll be there in the finished version.
This goes for any resources - if there's something which is glaringly missing, add it.
Jessiecat's solution to the icy British isles is also recommended.
AnotherPacifist
Deity
- Joined
- Sep 21, 2007
- Messages
- 4,878
Sounds like an interesting mod. Have the hidden diplo modifiers been done yet? (e.g. Arabia and Byzantines should be at opposite ends, while after the 1100ADs all Catholics should be against Orthodoxes; traditional rivalries like Burgundy and the French crown)
