Naval Changes

[Vehem]

I've just updated the changelog with the following;

Spoiler for Changelog:

31. Added Carrack naval unit. Requires: Optics. Strength 9, Range 1. (Role: Escort)
32. Frigate moved to Astronomy. Strength 11, Range 1, Moves 5, No cargo. Bonuses vs transport ships - Galley, Galleon, Queen of the Line - and Privateers. (Role: Escort/Patrol vessel)
33. Galleon moved to Optics, 1 extra cargo. (Role: Transport)
34. Caravel gains +35% withdrawal chance. (Role: Exploration)
35. Galley gains 2 cargo spaces and increases in cost by 10 hammers. (Role: Early Transport)
36. Man O' War gains ranged attack (Range 2, 60% limit). Moves reduced to 3. (Role: Heavy Warship)
37. Pirate (Lanun UU) gains 1 move and starts with Buccaneer crew (allows them to use the Buccaneers spell). Gains +50% bonus vs Transport ships (see above).
38. Privateers gain +25% bonus vs transport ships.
39. Both Pirate and Privateer reduced by 1 strength (specialized against Transport vessels, more vulnerable to escort/patrol ships)
40. All bonus requirements (copper, iron) for naval units below Astronomy level removed (encourages the use of different ships, especially by the AI).

The aim is to give each ship type a more concrete role. All requirements for bonuses in the Sailing/Optics era (copper/iron) have been removed.

Sailing era
Galley - Early Transport (extra transport capacity)
Trireme - Early Escort (more easily available as no copper prereq)

Optics Era
Carrack - Escort (new unit, takes role of frigate)
Galleon - Transport (moved earlier in the tree to encourage inter-continental war)
Privateer - Anti-Transport (stronger vs transports, weaker vs others)
Caravel - Exploration (added decent withdrawal chance)

Astronomy Era
Frigate - Patrol/Escort (faster, hunts for sneaky transports and pirates)
Queen of the Line - Transport (unchanged)
Man O'War - Heavy Warship/Defensive (slower, long ranged, heavy hitter)

===

Feedback welcomed.

[Arctic Circle]

Sounds good to me.

[Skitters]

does this imply the death of the change crew type function as presumably that helps muddy the ship roles (...although I do actually think it's a neat little function, just not sure whether the AI grasps it)?

Just thinking that perhaps with Astronomy, other nations (and the Lanun for their other ship types) could purchase the ability to have Buccaneer crew...or a weaker 'Boarding Party' version?

Whilst that may be perceived as a nerf for the Lanun, I think opening up this ability across the civs would make the whole naval thing a lot more interesting

[Skitters]

Also notice you've added Trade ships in the main changelog - do these count as transport ships for piracy purposes...and can they be captured (and if so exchanged for a (presumable) gold boost at a home port by the piratical player)?

[Vehem]

Originally Posted by Skitters

Also notice you've added Trade ships in the main changelog - do these count as transport ships for piracy purposes...and can they be captured (and if so exchanged for a (presumable) gold boost at a home port by the piratical player)?

Aye - they will be included as targets for Pirates/Privateers. I hadn't implemented them when I first posted the list for the other ships. I hadn't considered the option of having them capturable, but instead had given them a "+10 gold on kill" so any ship that does destroy one will earn 10 gold for their civilization. In the case of Pirates, who have 15 GoldFromCombat, that would be 25 gold per Trade Ship sunk.

===

In return though, the trade ship will be a decent source of income, if you can maintain open borders with a reasonably distant, large, foreign port.

[Gilg]

Perhaps trade ships can't enter "blockaded" waters without escort of some sort?
And a deeper degree of customization would be nice... crews, guns and sails. + orbi style pirates (combat I + a promotion) really gives active combat and venom to the game. Every strait becomes a battle ground and a strong navy is more necessary. Perhaps it's too much, but i like it.


Edit: 10 gp per kill is by far not enough.... more gold or perhaps 1/2 - 1/4 the hammer cost of the trade ship. The hammers gained would be extra cargo and need space + safe transport to a friendly harbor.

[Jean Elcard]

Very nice change and sorely needed. My biggest hope is, that the AI will be able to do a better job out on the ocean now. Let's see how it turns out and hope for the best.

I'm not sure if I like your change to make all the earlier ships independet of resources. Maybe there is another way. When I was playing Rise of Mankind some weeks ago I kind of liked the property "builds x1 % faster with y1 and x2 % faster with y2 ...". I know a tag for this is available for buildings already, but i'm not that sure, that something like this exists for units in FF as well. Might be worth implementing, if not.

[Vehem]

Originally Posted by Gilg

Perhaps trade ships can't enter "blockaded" waters without escort of some sort?

It'd take some work to implement a "can't move here without escort", but I think it is covered fairly well by the fact that entering those waters is a really silly thing to do anyway. The blockade must be from a hostile ship and an undefended trade ship is not going to win often at all. I don't think there needs to be a game mechanic to prevent a player doing something like that - if they're willing to take such a risk, then by all means...

Originally Posted by Gilg

Edit: 10 gp per kill is by far not enough.... more gold or perhaps 1/2 - 1/4 the hammer cost of the trade ship. The hammers gained would be extra cargo and need space + safe transport to a friendly harbor.

The hammers are an option actually. I'll have a play with that and see how it feels. Makes some sense thematically at least.

The 10 gold is basically a bonus though for intercepting the ship - there's no game mechanic reason to give the attacking player anything in return. They've destroyed a ship costing their opponent a number of hammers for no return, plus the experience earned for the kill. Only the privateer classes of ships should be really encouraged to look for these ships and when combined with the pirate's inherent bonus, it can be quite a nice bit of gold anyway...

Originally Posted by Jean Elcard

I'm not sure if I like your change to make all the earlier ships independet of resources. Maybe there is another way. When I was playing Rise of Mankind some weeks ago I kind of liked the property "builds x1 % faster with y1 and x2 % faster with y2 ...". I know a tag for this is available for buildings already, but i'm not that sure, that something like this exists for units in FF as well. Might be worth implementing, if not.

There is a tag for that (BonusProductionModifier) and it may work quite nicely if I increase the cost of the Optics-era ships but allow them to build quicker with the materials they used to require. The main priority is to get both the AI and the player using a variety of ships though - which I think relies on them being accessible (especially for the AI) and having diverse uses (more for the players).

[[to_xp]Gekko]

good changes, this will definitely make ships more interesting. does it also help the AI settle overseas lands? that would be truly great

[Vehem]

Originally Posted by [to_xp]Gekko

good changes, this will definitely make ships more interesting. does it also help the AI settle overseas lands? that would be truly great

Galleys having a cargo capacity from the start should do that...

[Tarquelne]

Looks like a significant improvement!

Originally Posted by Vehem

37. Pirate (Lanun UU) gains 1 move and starts with Buccaneer crew (allows them to use the Buccaneers spell). Gains +50% bonus vs Transport ships (see above).
38. Privateers gain +25% bonus vs transport ships.

Best suited to submarines, but how about making the Marksman promotion available (after a few levels of Combat) to Pirates and probably Privateers?

39. Both Pirate and Privateer reduced by 1 strength (specialized against Transport vessels, more vulnerable to escort/patrol ships)

The Frigate bonus plus the above seems like too much. Though I guess that depends on how much of an advantage for frigates you desire... Or how small and advantage for Privateers over transports.

Optics Era
Carrack - Escort (new unit, takes role of frigate)

"Carrack" implies an older, clunkier ship-type than Galleon. I suggest "Brig" or "Brigantine".

Frigate - Patrol/Escort (faster, hunts for sneaky transports and pirates)
Man O'War - Heavy Warship/Defensive (slower, long ranged, heavy hitter)

I'd appreciate a third ship-type in between the Man O'War and the Frigate. I've imagined the Man O'War as what the British would class as a First-Rater, and the Frigates as 5th Rate. I see a niche for 3rd-rate "workhorse" warships. Not as fast as Frigates, but not nearly as pricey as a Man O'War/much lower ranged.)

(I made an "Age of Sail" mod for Civ3 - my desires vis a vis ships might be unusual and somewhat excessive. )

[Vehem]

Originally Posted by Tarquelne

I'd appreciate a third ship-type in between the Man O'War and the Frigate. I've imagined the Man O'War as what the British would class as a First-Rater, and the Frigates as 5th Rate. I see a niche for 3rd-rate "workhorse" warships. Not as fast as Frigates, but not nearly as pricey as a Man O'War/much lower ranged.)

What would the role be? There's only 2 strength between Frigates and Men O' War (might need to boost the big guys by a point) so there's not really room for a "cheap o' war".

There's definitely a thematic place for it being as there were 5 or 6 first rate vessels in the British Navy at any given point compared to nearly 100 or so third rate vessels, but I'm mostly looking at mechanics so far.

====

With the Pirates vs Frigates - the Frigates are now third tier, so the instant response of any Pirate ship should be "run!" - there should be an era in which pirates are fairly dominant (might pay to keep the strength as-is to ensure that), but once the larger warships come out they become somewhat opportunistic tools.

Checking back over things - I think you're right. It probably is best to keep the Privateers at Str 8. They need to outclass Trireme's at least and should be only slightly weaker than Carrack/Brigs (know of a good unit model for the Brig?)

[MagisterCultuum]

I don't think that Pirates or Privateers should be units at all; their abilities should be moved to promotions that you could give to any naval units. Pirates are Privateers historically used the same basic types of ships as the regular navy did. Most would be smaller ships like Corvettes, with Pirate Kings themselves occasionally using captured Men O War.


I prefer making Piracy make the unit HN and get gold from combat, and make Letters of Marque make the unit AlwaysHostile and get gold from combat.


Dwarves need an Ironclad UU. It might also be nice to have Icebreaker ships that can move though sea ice (which would be important in my version where Temples of the Hand/Snowfall can create sea ice.)

[Tarquelne]

Originally Posted by Vehem

What would the role be?

Hmm... I'd make the Man O'War a National Unit - quite strong - and the in-between unit would be for everywhere you don't have a Man O'War but want more than a Frigate. It's ranged attack would be 1 or 2 steps below the Man O'Wars - nonexistant if the MOW's attack isn't sufficiently powerful/long ranged.

So, role-wise, I'd make the Man O'War a special, cool, unit and offer the new unit in as the normal Astronomy-era warship. Outside ranged bombardment there'd be no extra role: More putting a cherry on top of the naval warfare cake. Or maybe sundae - a banana boat.

Carrack/Brigs (know of a good unit model for the Brig?)

I'd probably go for this one: Chebeque / Xebec.

It might be best to use it as the Privateer - it looks very fast and sleek - and use the current Privateer model as the Optics-era Escort.

[Skitters]

In between unit name "Ship of the Line" perhaps?

[[to_xp]Gekko]

an icebreaker ship ( alternatively, you could implement it as a crew or a promotion ) would be nice. if you let it move on impassable ice and terraform it to water as soon as the unit is standing on the tile, the AI should be able to use it as well

[Willgar]

Tarquelne suggestion of Making Man-o-War slightly stronger but as a national unit is a very good idea. It would still allow for pirate fleets to attack poorly escorted merchants but "proper" navy escorts would out gun them. Really nice mechanic - reminds me of the aircraft carriers in regular Civ

[Gilg]

I see so much potential in MC's suggestion.
A permanent minus 20% strength would give any ship a wee challenge if trying to go the way of piracy.

One of the reasons I advocate using promotions is that I do not believe that trade ships and privateers will be the silencer of "unused oceans" discussions.
Ships are a "luxury", they may be necessary to build empires, but they can't take cities by themselves. Ships need all the help they can get.

[Elm]

I like MC's suggestion of making pirate a promotion. Make it available to lanun right off the bat, and maybe a later promotion for other civs. Also, it would be nice if that promotion allowed "HN" and remove HN spells -- but only castable within your boarders, or maybe within your cities and pirate ports.

[heisenberg]

Kudos to the FF team adding these couple of huge changes in the next release~ (imagining myself torn between playing Ice scenarios or FF over winter break )

I did notice an interesting lack of reference to the arcane barge--so... is it removed/changed/left the same?
With the current huge increase in strength of naval units though, I definitely see the arcane barges taking a HUGE hit on utility--its fireballs are gonna simply bounce off these new frigates like a ping-pong ball. If left unchanged, its only use is to toss fireball bombardment at land units (in which it seems that the new man'o'wars can do now)

Another naval issue I would like to discuss would be regarding OO.
Similar to the above, with ship and sea creature str going up by as much as 40% in 0.34, OO's naval prowess has taken a huge hit.
It does make sense that cultists shouldn't be a match to heavy warships (I agree with the cultists/ship str ratio).
But, having the Kraken stay the exact same str as before, makes the high priests kind of obselete.
Religious Law and Theology are very expensive techs, and simply to get one free "strong" man' o war feels slightly too little for the beaker/upgrading costs.
(=P maybe I should post it on the main forum too since it applies there as well, but I guess I'll see how naval warfare pans out in FF first)