RFC Europe -Art and Flags Thread

[jessiecat]

Originally Posted by sedna17

Yes, flags... that needs a little more time. Probably not before next week.

Glad you like the map. Could the start box go in the upper left corner? Hope you can figure out the flags soon. Finishing the UHVs come first though, I think.

[Chrismarck]

Originally Posted by jessiecat

Thread updated for further discussion on art and flags.

@ Simon B1er . These are the proposed flags. The Ottoman flag needs a crescent added to it like this one.

proposal for kiew

[sedna17]

Status Report:

Okay, I understand how this system works. It's not a trivial problem assign colors to Civs with the the following constraints:

1) No two Civs can be exactly the same color scheme (game restriction)*
2) Civs which are expected to be near each other should have relatively different colors
3) Some civs have a color which makes sense historically
4) Most of the flag artwork we have is in the form of decals, which constrains the underlying colors. Some (user-contributed) flags are "solid", and it doesn't really matter what the underlying nation colors are.

To illustrate the last point. England's flag is going to be the English coat of arms, which is yellow lions on a red background. The flag we currently have for this is color-less. To get the flag to be the right color requires that England be red with yellow highlights.

Anyhow, the sort of problem is that the number of countries that would ideally be some shade of red historically is large. Judging by flag colors: England, Burgundy (sort of), Poland, Venice, the Pope, Byzantium, Ottomans, Moscow, possibly the Nose (Danish flag). We can't have this, so compromises will have to be made.

This will be an iterative process: a coming together of color schemes that work well on the map with flag art. The flag artwork posted here is fine, as far as it goes, for suggestions. However, these images can't actually be used for the flags, so I have to track something like them down on the internet and covert them to the appropriate format.

The next test version will have a new flag for Poland, and different colors for the Civs, attempting to build toward a diverse and historic palette. Feedback will be solicited.

*The reason to current colors are sort of totally random is because Kiev and Moscow were assigned the same color scheme in the XML. The game randomly chose a new color for Moscow, but this color was assigned to some other Civ, and things cascaded from there.

[Úmarth]

What format do the flags need to be in? Decals?

Unfortunately I've lost the original files though so if I didn't upload them somewhere that screenshot is all that's left X.x

[sedna17]

Hey Umarth,

Thanks for the offer of help, but I think I've actually got most of the flags sorted out now.

[Úmarth]

Okay no problem.

[sedna17]

As a teaser, here are the new Civ buttons I have made (same colors/symbols as the flags). A few more civs are get "new" buttons from elsewhere.

These are: Burgundy, Bulgaria, Austria, Cordoba, Byzantium, Genoa, Kiev, Moscow, Pope, Portugal.

[operafantom]

Hello guys!
Great work so far! Thank you!
For the Hungarian flag an idea: (it's from the European Middle Ages mod)

[jessiecat]

Nice work with the tabs and flags, Sedna. We're nearly there. The only ones that really need work, IMO, are the following.
Bulgaria. OK for a button but could we find a better flag than a horse?
Moscow. I know what it's supposed to be but it's very blurred. I'll look for something.
Arabia. That BTS palm tree is very cheesy. What not the Islamic one I posted above?
Cordoba. OK as a button. But as a flag? Same suggestion as above.
Kiev. OK but there's better art in Umarth's flags above also.
Venice. The button is great. The flag should be the same.
Ottomans. Makes no sense. A yellow crescent as below would be best.

[3Miro]

I have been trying to find a good icon for Bulgaria. One of the symbols of Bulgaria (semi-officially) is the Horseman from Madara (Madarski Konnik). It is an image carved on a vertical rock 23m high near the town of Madara, several kilometers from Preslav.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madara_Rider

The carved image has been dated to the early 8th century and around the picture one can find the names of several of the early Khans. Post-Christian Bulgarians associated it with St. George.

One of the interesting facts was that a second image was found in a Thracian tomb dating 9th century BC. Thracian were living in the territory of modern Bulgaria and Romania since before the Greeks. Homer mentions them in the Illiad as allies to the Trojans. From this one can conclude that when the Bulgars made it to the Balkans, found the tomb and the image of the horseman, liked it and then build one of their own, however, there is also a third image. The third image was found in Afghanistan, carved in a rock, the Afghani horseman was called Madara. As of right now, there are thousands of crazy theories and nothing scientific resolving the connection between those three images.

I don't know if any of the pictures that I found could be used by sedna.

[sedna17]

Thanks for the feedback.

Hungary: That is a better symbol. The slightly simpler version I used was pre-made, and thus easier, but I can do this one instead.

Ottomans: I would like to defend the current choice, which is from Rhye. It is the Tughra http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tughra and is a perfectly fine symbol for the Ottomans. The crescent is certainly more recognizable, but sort of boring too. I'm torn.

Venice: The flag should be the same as the button (without the border, which gets distorted in an ugly way). Unless I made a mistake...

Kiev/Moscow: Both the complex symbols for these two cities (Angel/St. George) look better in full color/large than small/two-color. I can do a better job on the Moscow one (I shrank it down too small and then made it slightly larger again, which is never a good idea). I'm not very motivated to switch the Kiev one when the current symbol is nice and simple, displays well as small size, and is perfectly fine for Kiev.

Arabia/Cordoba: Why do you want these two civs to have exactly the same symbol? That seems like a bad idea. I'm ok with giving one of them (probably the Arabs, since you hate the palm) this new symbol -- but again, I worry that it's a bit complex and won't look great shrunk down on unit flags/shields.

Bulgaria: I was thinking of the Madra Rider with the horse (which was pre-made, and thus easy). I'll see what I can do with any of the pictures you post. My other option was this seal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Co...ian_Empire.PNG but it looked bad small in-game.

[jessiecat]

Originally Posted by sedna17

Thanks for the feedback.

Hungary: That is a better symbol. The slightly simpler version I used was pre-made, and thus easier, but I can do this one instead.

Ottomans: I would like to defend the current choice, which is from Rhye. It is the Tughra http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tughra and is a perfectly fine symbol for the Ottomans. The crescent is certainly more recognizable, but sort of boring too. I'm torn.

Venice: The flag should be the same as the button (without the border, which gets distorted in an ugly way). Unless I made a mistake...

Kiev/Moscow: Both the complex symbols for these two cities (Angel/St. George) look better in full color/large than small/two-color. I can do a better job on the Moscow one (I shrank it down too small and then made it slightly larger again, which is never a good idea). I'm not very motivated to switch the Kiev one when the current symbol is nice and simple, displays well as small size, and is perfectly fine for Kiev.

Arabia/Cordoba: Why do you want these two civs to have exactly the same symbol? That seems like a bad idea. I'm ok with giving one of them (probably the Arabs, since you hate the palm) this new symbol -- but again, I worry that it's a bit complex and won't look great shrunk down on unit flags/shields.

Bulgaria: I was thinking of the Madra Rider with the horse (which was pre-made, and thus easy). I'll see what I can do with any of the pictures you post. My other option was this seal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Co...ian_Empire.PNG but it looked bad small in-game.

OK. You've convinced me, esp. on the tughra and the madara rider. I'm OK too with the Cordoban one though it should be green on a white background. Cordoban standards were predominately white with green or black inscriptions. But with the Arab one I'd really like the black one with white letters which is accurate with the jihad banners of the Prophet and early Rashidun caliphs. The green one was really a similiar one under the Ummayads.

[3Miro]

Here are some more Madara Riders. I hope at least one of them works. The golden one is currently on Bulgarian currency. The best for our case might be the drawn one, camera pictures are good, but wouldn't work for the flag. We should keep only the main image of the Rider, the written text should not be on the flag.

[jessiecat]

Originally Posted by 3Miro

Here are some more Madara Riders. I hope at least one of them works. The golden one is currently on Bulgarian currency. The best for our case might be the drawn one, camera pictures are good, but wouldn't work for the flag. We should keep only the main image of the Rider, the written text should not be on the flag.

Really nice art. You've certainly taught me something. That's a really good image (esp. No. 3) if we can transfer it to a flag.

[sedna17]

Originally Posted by 3Miro

Here are some more Madara Riders. I hope at least one of them works. The golden one is currently on Bulgarian currency. The best for our case might be the drawn one, camera pictures are good, but wouldn't work for the flag. We should keep only the main image of the Rider, the written text should not be on the flag.

The drawn one should work well. Odd how compositionally similar it is to Moscow's St. George on the coat of arms.

[merijn_v1]

IMO you should make an flag from the 3rd.

[Barak]

Its strange for me to see Portugal in blue. Shouldn't they be Green and Red? Or at least Green and white?

[sedna17]

I thought blue and white was more appropriate for this time period. See the flags at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Portugal

[Barak]

I stand corrected

[jessiecat]

Just a word about Islamic flags. While the new Cordoba flag looks OK it is historically wrong. The Ummayads and the Cordoban caliphate only used white banners so white with a green inscription would be fine.
The followers of Muhammad, the early Rashidun caliphs and the Abbasids flew only a plain black banner or a black one with an inscription in white. The only people who ever used a green flag were the Fatimids of North Africa and later the Ottomans.
I've posted the correct ones above. (post 29)