RFC Europe: Small bugs/fixes

[AbsintheRed]

Originally Posted by steerpike_swe

Horse archers EAT axemen, without any promo the start with the same strength, but have two first strikes, are immune against first strikes, and 45% wichanche to withdraw from combat if they do not win. Also they will cause flanking damage to early siege.

Put a stack of 10 of each unit against each other if you do not belive me

The 2 first strikes is enough of edge to those axemen. I get to hit you twice beore you hit me.This means that when you hit me you will already be hurt.

And if the first strike is not enough 4-5 of the attacking HA will still survive and gain XP.

If any axemen are still alive they will be killed the next turn.And the axes will have lost more units and take a stability hit.

This is why I suggested to give attack bonus againt light cavalry
I want to keep it the way you wrote here when horse archers attack, but should result in a more devastating defeat when they have to defend

[dragodon64]

Originally Posted by AbsintheRed

This is why I suggested to give attack bonus againt light cavalry
I want to keep it the way you wrote here when horse archers attack, but should result in a more devastating defeat when they have to defend

Isn't absence of defensive boni enough of a defensive penalty? Axemen could be on a hill, in a forest or across a river, and forests and rivers are plentiful on this map.

[steerpike_swe]

something like what you suggested might work.

But it is kind of silly giving axes bonuses against mounted archers out in the terrain.

Witdrawal only works when you attack anyway - this i why i wrote that the stack is for attack.

why not give early light cavalry a huge penalty for attacking a city with walls and or castles - somethin lie - 50% or something.

I have no real problem that horse archers dominated the open field. That was what they did. They were pretty much invincible. And a quick raid to raze or capture a small city without any defences built is also OK - they did that aswell.

The thing they should not be able to do is to quick take out major fortified cities - at least not before the mongol invasions. Because the mongols did take major fortified cities.

[steerpike_swe]

One simple thing to nerf light cav would be to not let them have free first strikes and no Drill promos as in SOI.

[3Miro]

1. Give HA and Pistolliers higher penalty for attacking cities (say -20%).
2. Give Spears and Pikes attack bonus against Light, thus you can catch the Light units, you can mow them, but if they catch you in the open you lose.
3. Pistolliers shouldn't ignore City Walls (need to bring artillery).

Hopefully this will reduce the Lights to a harassment support unit. You still need the large stack with siege weapons and all, but the Lights can join in to hunt down workers or weakened stray units and pillage improvement.

[amrod]

Originally Posted by steerpike_swe

The thing they should not be able to do is to quick take out major fortified cities - at least not before the mongol invasions. Because the mongols did take major fortified cities.

I agree with the -whatever% for light cavalry city attack.
There shouldn't be an attack bonus against them in the open.
And even Mongols had problems with forts/castles. (The Keshik is one very powerful unit, it's lucky the AI can't use them. Of course if it played historically, it would be unplayable - they would raze many cities and pillage up to Wien. And what took years or decades to rebuild IRL is too many turns in Civ).

[amrod]

steerpike_swe : and good analysis on the pikemen and pistoliers! I think you're right.

[AbsintheRed]

Originally Posted by dragodon64

Isn't absence of defensive boni enough of a defensive penalty? Axemen could be on a hill, in a forest or across a river, and forests and rivers are plentiful on this map.

Originally Posted by steerpike_swe

But it is kind of silly giving axes bonuses against mounted archers out in the terrain.

Witdrawal only works when you attack anyway - this i why i wrote that the stack is for attack.

why not give early light cavalry a huge penalty for attacking a city with walls and or castles - somethin lie - 50% or something.

I have no real problem that horse archers dominated the open field. That was what they did. They were pretty much invincible. And a quick raid to raze or capture a small city without any defences built is also OK - they did that aswell.

The thing they should not be able to do is to quick take out major fortified cities - at least not before the mongol invasions. Because the mongols did take major fortified cities.

Originally Posted by steerpike_swe

One simple thing to nerf light cav would be to not let them have free first strikes and no Drill promos as in SOI.

Originally Posted by 3Miro

1. Give HA and Pistolliers higher penalty for attacking cities (say -20%).
2. Give Spears and Pikes attack bonus against Light, thus you can catch the Light units, you can mow them, but if they catch you in the open you lose.
3. Pistolliers shouldn't ignore City Walls (need to bring artillery).

Hopefully this will reduce the Lights to a harassment support unit. You still need the large stack with siege weapons and all, but the Lights can join in to hunt down workers or weakened stray units and pillage improvement.

Originally Posted by amrod

I agree with the -whatever% for light cavalry city attack.
There shouldn't be an attack bonus against them in the open.

Alright guys, you convinced me
They cannot withdraw when they attack and don't get defensive bonuses, so this might be enough.

So no attack bonus against light cavalry on open field, at least for now
Instead they get 25% penalty for city attack and cannot adopt the drill promotion tree
If it's still not enough we can further increase the city attack penalty, or add that attack bonus against them, we will see
(they already do not ignore city walls and castles - that's only for the gunpowder unit type, pistolier is light cavalry)

[civ_king]

Why do you have to nerfbat light cavalry? Most players don't brutally exploit them so much.

[ezzlar]

Remove drill, strenght 9 then -10% city attack should be enough.

[AbsintheRed]

Originally Posted by civ_king

Why do you have to nerfbat light cavalry? Most players don't brutally exploit them so much.

The current nerf is not a huge one, won't be a difference at all for most players. It's only against those exploits
You like to give them drill promotions too? I'm also sry for that one...

[AbsintheRed]

Originally Posted by ezzlar

Remove drill, strenght 9 then -10% city attack should be enough.

Why? That's a much bigger nerf than the current one

[civ_king]

Originally Posted by AbsintheRed

The current nerf is not a huge one, won't be a difference at all for most players. It's only against those exploits
You like to give them drill promotions too? I'm also sry for that one...

I can reload the turn the AI flips everything which prevents a flip, that's a massive exploit, you going to fix that?

It is nice to have pistoliers have drill, to remove it basically reduces them to spam flanking and attack in massive waves

[AbsintheRed]

Originally Posted by civ_king

I can reload the turn the AI flips everything which prevents a flip, that's a massive exploit, you going to fix that?

I would like to, already tried my hands on it, but didn't find the cause
Hopefully 3Miro can fix this, he has a much better understanding both in C++ and in the specific code of RFCE - he wrote most of it after all

[AbsintheRed]

Originally Posted by civ_king

It is nice to have pistoliers have drill, to remove it basically reduces them to spam flanking and attack in massive waves

As I said, I also like using light cavalry with drill promotions. And it's more or less realistic, at least for missile cavalry (horse archer, pistolier)
But until we find a better way to balance them, it will remain this way

[ezzlar]

Originally Posted by AbsintheRed

Why? That's a much bigger nerf than the current one

I just summed up what was previously said, but its possible I misunderstood.

[AbsintheRed]

Originally Posted by ezzlar

I just summed up what was previously said, but its possible I misunderstood.

No prob
ATM in the svn version all Light Cavalry units has 25% city attack penalty and no access to the drill promotion line
I don't really want to reduce their general strength
The agreement was that they should dominate the battlefield when attacking in open terrain

[3Miro]

Originally Posted by AbsintheRed

No prob
ATM in the svn version all Light Cavalry units has 25% city attack penalty and no access to the drill promotion line
I don't really want to reduce their general strength
The agreement was that they should dominate the battlefield when attacking in open terrain

What about Keshiks and Seljuks? Those shouldn't have such penalties.

[steerpike_swe]

Originally Posted by AbsintheRed

The current nerf is not a huge one, won't be a difference at all for most players. It's only against those exploits
You like to give them drill promotions too? I'm also sry for that one...

Originally Posted by AbsintheRed

Why? That's a much bigger nerf than the current one

Originally Posted by AbsintheRed

As I said, I also like using light cavalry with drill promotions. And it's more or less realistic, at least for missile cavalry (horse archer, pistolier)
But until we find a better way to balance them, it will remain this way

Originally Posted by AbsintheRed

No prob
ATM in the svn version all Light Cavalry units has 25% city attack penalty and no access to the drill promotion line
I don't really want to reduce their general strength
The agreement was that they should dominate the battlefield when attacking in open terrain

This seems to be an OK compromise for the early horse archers. Maybe the Hungarian UU might need some similar but smaller nerf.

Since I do not know how scary the AI will be if you fix those passive huge stacks and pacific behaviour, I think it would be wise to not nerf the units to much.

I also like using drill for light cav. Why not open up that line of promotion for light cav with a later tech? The main issue is the cheap early HA drillerkillers. They already start with 2 first strikes and are immune against first strikes, further Drill promos is one othe reasons they are OP. With the all those extra first strikes from drill promos + flanking promos giving 60+% chance of withdrawal + being immune against first strikes they can actually take out longbows fortified behind city walls and castle.

[ezzlar]

Originally Posted by 3Miro

What about Keshiks and Seljuks? Those shouldn't have such penalties.

Seljuks are heavy cavalry.