Orion's Inquisition Mod

[OrionVeteran]

Originally Posted by glider1

@OrionVet
Thanks for the info on real history and inquisitions. Good stuff. Don't want to take too much of your time, but briefly, is there any real history which implies that the church wanted to conduct an inquisition to potentially stop the citizenry from degenerating into civil war or revolting against the state itself?

I guess the theoretically possibilities is that the followers of a foreign religion is inciting rebellion against the state in one way or another, or that the citizenry loyal to the state religion, begin organising a rebellion themselves either against the state for not purging the foreign religion, or directly against the followers of the foreign religion themselves.

Avoiding domestic revolt of any type so as to keep the state functioning well, is one strong motivation for conducting inquisitions in the "Revolutions Inquisitions" mod. The question is if there is any reality to that.

Cheers.

Yes. There was no sanctuary under the law, to protect a heretic or one suspected of heresy from a tribunal's right to try, judge, and condemn the accused. Any heretical rebellion would be virtually crushed by the combined power of the Church and State. In Spain, the Inquisition claimed and exercised the power of enforcing the prohibition of condemned books. All owners of books were commanded to submit them for examination, under penalty of excommunication or even death. No bookseller or other person was allowed to sell or keep any book condemned by the Inquisition, and all such books were to be publicly burnt. Civil power cooperated with the Inquisition, while providing an effective machinery for a state censorship. There was a continuous warfare waged against culture and learning, from which no one was safe.

A large number of Jews and Muslims were given a choice, baptism or exile. Any resistance was futile. The edict was to convert or be expelled from their country.

The Inquisition only required evidence of two witnesses for prosecution. The accused were not able to call witnesses in their own defense, nor during most of the Inquisition, were they allowed to have counsel present. In some areas, lawyers for the accused were allowed, but if the accused were found guilty of heresy, the lawyer could also be so charged, for having defended them!

Since the primary stated goal of the Inquisition was to save souls, suspects were continually encouraged to "confess" to their heresy. Those that admitted their “guilt”, and were willing to give the Inquisition names of other potential heretics, were often let off with penances. However, some resisted and were unwilling to admit guilt: They usually ended up as victims of torture. The use of torture was authorized in 1252 by Pope Innocent IV. In Spain, it is estimated that torture was used in about 1/3 of all cases. The purpose of torture was to exact confessions.

The harshest sentences (such as complete confiscation of property or burning at the stake) were reserved for two types of offenders - those that refused to recant of their heresy and those “relapsed” heretics. Once a relapsed or unrepentant heretic was found guilty, they were handed over to the secular authorities for punishment.

The Church itself would not administer the death sentence. Rather, this was left to local secular authorities. The chosen method for administering capital punishment – burning at the stake, was partially chosen because it did not shed blood! There was a pragmatic reason for charging, sentencing, disinterring, and burning the dead – the goods of their families could be confiscated.

In all of History, next to genicide, the Inquisition is perhaps the most heinous example of systematic and authorized killing to defend a religious doctrine or faith.

Orion Veteran

[Ninja2]

Originally Posted by glider1

is there any real history which implies that the church wanted to conduct an inquisition to potentially stop the citizenry from degenerating into civil war or revolting against the state itself?

Not sure if this is out of context: Even within the Catholic faith, monks were occasionally burnt by the Inquisition, simply because they held views which differed too much from those of the Pope. In particular, the conflict between Franciscan and Dominican monks over the issue of poverty (were priests, monks, etc. allowed to own lands or property, and how ascetic should they live their lives) caused persecution of Franciscan monks by Dominican Popes. So calling yourself a Christian monk was no guarantee that the Inquisition would not come knocking on your door.

[Tephros]

Originally Posted by OrionVeteran

Respectfully Disagree: The inquisitor is a very powerful unit. While the Missionary can spread one single religion, the state religion, into a city; the inquisitor can remove ALL non-state religions and their associated religious buildings. With greater capability, there must be a greater cost.

The extra cost under what I suggested would be in terms of losing population.

Respectfully Disagree: Not sure what the Paya wonder is...

Shwedagon Paya: The wonder that gives you access to all religious civics. The point being inquisitions should require theocracy.

Organized religion has a central authority, which determines theology. History shows that governments with official state religions had a central authority, the church, which determined religious theology. In a Monarchy, the leader ruled over the affairs of the state, while the official church ruled over religious matters. The Church and State have close ties. Theocracy is a form of government, where Holy men or women are in charge of the state. The Church and State rule together. Point is a Theocracy and Organized religion can have inquisitions.

Strictly speaking, theocracy is a form of organized religion, but with the added condition that practicing other religions is not legally permitted. This seems to be the spirit of an inquisition. Contemporary examples are abundant in Islamic nations, but have no present need for active inquisition.

Respectfully Disagree: Reducing population by 1 or 2 represents far too many people. The Holy office building, with it's -1 health is still a big population hit, but far more realistic and the Holy Office yields a small amount of gold.

I don't see the need for a holy office, even if some inquisitions used them. The idea is that the act of purging other religions should yield gold much like pillaging enemy countrysides, albeit a larger amount. This is because people who do not convert forfeit their property. Some inquisitions killed large numbers of people, some killed only a few dozen. Justinian killed many people and his actions could have been called a form of inquistion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justinian#Religious_policy. But I'm as interested in elegant gameplay as historical accuracy, as the game is based upon rewriting history. If you can deprive somebody of an AP victory merely by building a unit and purging a city, there should be a penalty as severe as population loss. That could represent the death or displacement of thousands.

Now if you don't like the Religious Victory, I might be persuaded to make it an option. That way you can play the game the way you like it.

Well all victory conditions should be option as it is in vanilla. I always enable all of them though. I don't really use mods so it's kind of moot. I think inquisitors as I described should have been in BtS, but you can't get everything you want unless you're willing to mod for yourself.

Agree: There is a bonus for running Theocracy: New units get +2 free experience points when constructed in cities with the official state religion. Plus, Theocracy prevents the spread of non-state religions.

IMO, that's a pretty pathetic bonus for the long-term disadvantage of disallowing other religions. What I said was that there should be a bonus for having your state religion AND NO OTHERS.

The Holy Office building provides fair compensation for building inquisitors by giving +2 gold on every turn. You can't build a Holy Office under Pacifism or Free Religion civics.

Not that I would ever use free religion in a game where I had used theocracy, but I would never build such a building as it would represent a permanent handicap and hurt you in the late-game. +2 gold is totally offset by +1 unhealthiness, and unhealthiness has nothing to do with any form of inquistion except in a gameplay penalty sense, though an inappropriate form of it IMO.

Last, but not least, a player is rewarded for religious unity by achieving a religious victory.

If there were such a thing as religious victory, it should only involve getting your religious influence above some percentage (like 90%), not in purging your country of all other religions. Maybe it should also require being in control of the holy city for a majority of the game.

[glider1]

@OrionVet and Ninja2
Thanks for that information on inquisitions! (Also thanks to Tephros for the wiki link). Would it be perhaps correct if I say that inquisitions and quashing rebellion are correlated not cause and effected?

In any case, may I use your post as Civilopaedia text for Inquisitions in the "Revolution Inquisitions mod" at some point in the future? I would only do so with your permission and if I get it going, could forward you on the code.

Cheers.

[OrionVeteran]

Originally Posted by Tephros

The extra cost under what I suggested would be in terms of losing population.

You have suggested a city that has a successful inquisition should suffer the loss of 1 or even 2 population points. These numbers represent thousands of people. For a city with a total of 3 people to loose 1/3 or even 2/3 of the entire city population is simply not realistic or historically accurate. The -1 health slows the growth of a city with the Holy Office. Slower growth is still a population hit, but it represents far fewer people in comparison to killing off a major percentage of an entire city.

Originally Posted by Tephros

Shwedagon Paya: The wonder that gives you access to all religious civics.

OK, Thanks for the clarification.

Originally Posted by Tephros

The point being inquisitions should require theocracy.

Not true. Organized religion in a country ruled by a Monarch were not Theocracies, yet the official state religious leaders sanctioned inquisitions in several non-theocraticaly ruled countries. The religious doctrine of the official Church had the same intollerance of other religions as you will find in a Theocracy, but these countries were not ruled by a Theocracy. Inquisitors acted in the name of the Church and with it's full authority to combat Heresy. Heresy is a theological or religious opinion or doctrine maintained in opposition to that of the official doctrine of the state religion. Thus, the religious doctrine of combating heresy was used to justify an inquisition. The study of religious doctrine is more correctly associated with Theology and is not limited to a Theocratic form of government.

Originally Posted by Tephros

Strictly speaking, theocracy is a form of organized religion, but with the added condition that practicing other religions is not legally permitted. This seems to be the spirit of an inquisition. Contemporary examples are abundant in Islamic nations, but have no present need for active inquisition.

Heresy was not legally permitted in many countries that were not Theocracies. Again an inquisition was conducted to combat beliefs that did not conform to the official church doctrine.

Originally Posted by Tephros

I don't see the need for a holy office, even if some inquisitions used them. The idea is that the act of purging other religions should yield gold much like pillaging enemy countrysides, albeit a larger amount. This is because people who do not convert forfeit their property. Some inquisitions killed large numbers of people, some killed only a few dozen. Justinian killed many people and his actions could have been called a form of inquistion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justinian#Religious_policy. But I'm as interested in elegant gameplay as historical accuracy, as the game is based upon rewriting history. If you can deprive somebody of an AP victory merely by building a unit and purging a city, there should be a penalty as severe as population loss. That could represent the death or displacement of thousands.

You can deprive someone of an AP victory by conquest of a city and razing it! I believe the more moderate form of a population hit represented by the Holy Office effect of -1 health, is more historically correct.

Originally Posted by Tephros

Well all victory conditions should be option as it is in vanilla. I always enable all of them though. I don't really use mods so it's kind of moot. I think inquisitors as I described should have been in BtS, but you can't get everything you want unless you're willing to mod for yourself.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Tephros

IMO, that's a pretty pathetic bonus for the long-term disadvantage of disallowing other religions. What I said was that there should be a bonus for having your state religion AND NO OTHERS.

If you get to that condition, you have achieved religious unity. The bonus is victory!

Originally Posted by Tephros

Not that I would ever use free religion in a game where I had used theocracy, but I would never build such a building as it would represent a permanent handicap and hurt you in the late-game. +2 gold is totally offset by +1 unhealthiness, and unhealthiness has nothing to do with any form of inquistion except in a gameplay penalty sense, though an inappropriate form of it IMO.

The offset only continues, while there is a need to produce more inquisitors. At some point, most of your cities will be converted and the gold continues to flow.

Originally Posted by Tephros

If there were such a thing as religious victory, it should only involve getting your religious influence above some percentage (like 90%), not in purging your country of all other religions. Maybe it should also require being in control of the holy city for a majority of the game.

Currently religious influence is set to 80%, which, along with the other prerequisites, makes achieving a religious victory difficult. It goes beyond what you ask by requiring you to not only have a Holy City, but also build the Holy City Shrine.

Very Respectfully,

Orion Veteran

[OrionVeteran]

From old thread.....

Originally Posted by modifieda4

ok found a problem...I duplicates of code in doInquisitorCore_AI. One was orion's and one was certainly old. so what the difference? It looks like Orion's code check for holy city ownership? Can you explain Orion? thanks!

I have compared the doInquisitorCore_AI function in the latest version and the original version from BMARNZ. There was duplicate code. I have removed some of the duplication and I am slowly improving the entire function one piece at a time. The the 200A version has improved the section: #Checks religion percents. This code provides the "ibestReligionPercent" which is used in the next section of code.

Please Note: The function is very large and changes will take some time. My goal in revising this function is to make the code more efficient and eliminating duplication is certainly a part of that. If you have any suggestions to improve this code, I'm willing to entertain any ideas.

Sincerely,

Orion Veteran

[OrionVeteran]

Originally Posted by glider1

@OrionVet and Ninja2
Thanks for that information on inquisitions! (Also thanks to Tephros for the wiki link). Would it be perhaps correct if I say that inquisitions and quashing rebellion are correlated not cause and effected?

In any case, may I use your post as Civilopaedia text for Inquisitions in the "Revolution Inquisitions mod" at some point in the future? I would only do so with your permission and if I get it going, could forward you on the code.

Cheers.

I'm not in this to be glorified. I have re-written the mod, the code and all documentation for the enjoyment and benefit of the entire CIV community. Any reference to my authorship would be nice, but you are free to use what ever you want.

Orion Veteran

[OrionVeteran]

Originally Posted by Tephros

I don't agree with this having anything to do with a victory...

After further review, I can safely say that there is already an option that you can choose at the beginning of the game for a religious victory. If the option is not selected or set to False, the code has a check that prevents the religious victory. So, if you don't want to play this mod with the possibility of achieving a religious victory, then all you have to do is disable it at game start.

Respectfully,

Orion Veteran

[modifieda4]

Originally Posted by OrionVeteran

From old thread.....



I have compared the doInquisitorCore_AI function in the latest version and the original version from BMARNZ. There was duplicate code. I have removed some of the duplication and I am slowly improving the entire function one piece at a time. The the 200A version has improved the section: #Checks religion percents. This code provides the "ibestReligionPercent" which is used in the next section of code.

Please Note: The function is very large and changes will take some time. My goal in revising this function is to make the code more efficient and eliminating duplication is certainly a part of that. If you have any suggestions to improve this code, I'm willing to entertain any ideas.

Sincerely,

Orion Veteran

good...so im not crazy...there was a duplicate section. fwiw i barely ever see the AI purge. there is something really wrong with that code.

[zappara]

Just tested v2.00a little bit and after looking the python I had a small idea how to improve AI players: When using Choose religion option, shouldn't AI players pick their leader's favorite religion when he has that one set up instead of random religion?

[modifieda4]

Ok a major update...

In my test game via the world builder I gave each competing AI a religion (holy City), tons of inquisitors and holy officies.

No inquisition.

Then I canned the doInquisitorCore_AI which has been in Bmarnz inquisition code since the beginning and put in the doInquisitorCore_AI code from Gods of Old.

next turn...MASSIVE Global Inquisition!

added more heathen religions via world builder...and bam! AIs build inquisitors.

One AI went free religion...no more inquisitions for them.

For now, I'm using the Gods of Old code. You'll notice its much more simple.

	def doInquisitorCore_AI( self, pUnit ):
		iOwner = pUnit.getOwner( )
		iStateReligion = gc.getPlayer( iOwner ).getStateReligion( )
		lCities = PyPlayer( iOwner ).getCityList( )
		
		#Looks to see if the AI controls a Holy City that is not the State Religion
		for iCity in range( len( lCities ) ):
			for iReligion in range( 7 ):
				if iReligion != iStateReligion:
					pCity = gc.getPlayer( iOwner ).getCity( lCities[ iCity ].getID( ) )
					if pCity.isHolyCityByType( iReligion ):
						#Makes the unit move to the City and purge it
						if pUnit.generatePath( pCity.plot( ), 0, False, None ):
							self.doHolyCitySeekAndDestroy( pUnit, pCity )
							return
		
		for iCity in range( len( lCities ) ):
			for iReligion in range( 7 ):
				if iReligion != iStateReligion:
					pCity = gc.getPlayer( iOwner ).getCity( lCities[ iCity ].getID( ) )
					if pCity.isHasReligion( iReligion ):
						if pUnit.generatePath( pCity.plot( ), 0, False, None ):
							self.doHolyCitySeekAndDestroy( pUnit, pCity )
							return

[OrionVeteran]

Originally Posted by modifieda4

Ok a major update...

In my test game via the world builder I gave each competing AI a religion (holy City), tons of inquisitors and holy officies.

No inquisition.

Then I canned the doInquisitorCore_AI which has been in Bmarnz inquisition code since the beginning and put in the doInquisitorCore_AI code from Gods of Old.

next turn...MASSIVE Global Inquisition!

added more heathen religions via world builder...and bam! AIs build inquisitors.

One AI went free religion...no more inquisitions for them.

For now, I'm using the Gods of Old code. You'll notice its much more simple.

Fantastic! I took it from there and made the code follow the built in rules for inquisitions. For example, You must have established your state religion in the city before an inquisition can be attempted. ...And for Cities that have a non-state Holy City, the option for removing Holy Cities must set to True. Next, I took away the fixed number of religions (7); now it's unlimited. Lastly, I reversed the order to make the AI go after and purge non-state religions before going after any non-state Holy Cities.

AutoAI tested the following code successfully:

def doInquisitorCore_AI( self, pUnit ):
	iOwner = pUnit.getOwner( )
	iStateReligion = gc.getPlayer( iOwner ).getStateReligion( )
	lCities = PyPlayer( iOwner ).getCityList( )
		
	#Looks to see if the AI controls a City that has a non-State Religion
	for iCity in range( len( lCities ) ):
		for iReligion in range( gc.getNumReligionInfos( ) ):
			if iReligion != iStateReligion:
				pCity = gc.getPlayer( iOwner ).getCity( lCities[ iCity ].getID( ) )
				if pCity.isHasReligion( iReligion ) and pCity.isHasReligion( iStateReligion ):
					#Makes the unit move to the City and purge it
					if pUnit.generatePath( pCity.plot( ), 0, False, None ):
						self.doHolyCitySeekAndDestroy( pUnit, pCity )
						return		
		
	#Looks to see if the AI controls a Holy City that is not the State Religion
	for iCity in range( len( lCities ) ):
		for iReligion in range( gc.getNumReligionInfos( ) ):
			if iReligion != iStateReligion:
				pCity = gc.getPlayer( iOwner ).getCity( lCities[ iCity ].getID( ) )
				if pCity.isHolyCityByType( iReligion ) and pCity.isHasReligion( iStateReligion ):
					# Verify option for Inquisitors to remove a non-state Holy City
					if CvUtil.isOC_INQISITOR_CAN_REMOVE_HOLY_CITY():
						#Makes the unit move to the City and purge it
						if pUnit.generatePath( pCity.plot( ), 0, False, None ):
							self.doHolyCitySeekAndDestroy( pUnit, pCity )
							return

This code will be included in the next release. Modifieda4, I am very grateful for the work you have done.

Sincerely,

Orion Veteran

[modifieda4]

thanks! I'll try your changes out...hopefully this puts the nail in the coffin of the Inquisitor AI

[modifieda4]

Ok I tested Orion's code, and it seems fine.

The AI doesnt purge unless the state religion is present. nice, this is good code! thanks orion!

[modifieda4]

Orionverteran...I just finished playing an epic game with the good AI inquisition code.

All I can say is holy sheeeet! It totally takes the game to a new level. Because purging affects inter-AI relations, the AI is waaaay more fractured and the game is so much better.

I thank you for your additions to the Inquisition code

[OrionVeteran]

Originally Posted by modifieda4

Orionverteran...I just finished playing an epic game with the good AI inquisition code.

All I can say is holy sheeeet! It totally takes the game to a new level. Because purging affects inter-AI relations, the AI is waaaay more fractured and the game is so much better.

I thank you for your additions to the Inquisition code

Yes indeed it is. As you know, Civs that do not have the same state religion as you have, are going to be less friendly. Competing religions create a greater challenge for every player. If that wasn't enough, I have a surprise for you.

Release of Version 2.00B

I believe I have finally resolved the bug that allows more than one civ to occasionally found a second Holy City. Testing for the new code limited every civ to just one Holy City discovery. I think you will be very interested to find out how I solved it.

Very Respectfully,

Orion Veteran

[zappara]

My small bug report might be too late since you've already released v2.00b but here goes anyway:

Inquisition 2.00A

game settings:

limited religions on
choose religion
start era: medieval

python error in CvEventManager.py line 972: CivUtil not defined...

if iRCount == 7 - CivUtil.CvGetTotalReligionsFounded():

Should be CvUtil.CvGetTotalReligionsFounded():

Also Choose religion option does not work with these settings (era option problem?), after few turns you'll get random religion.

Bug in CvUtil.py line 219:

return iBestReligionPercent

Should be quoted out since the rest of the same code block is quoted out...

Excellent mod, keep up the good work!

[OrionVeteran]

Originally Posted by zappara

My small bug report might be too late since you've already released v2.00b but here goes anyway:

Inquisition 2.00A

game settings:

limited religions on
choose religion
start era: medieval

python error in CvEventManager.py line 972: CivUtil not defined...

if iRCount == 7 - CivUtil.CvGetTotalReligionsFounded():

Should be CvUtil.CvGetTotalReligionsFounded():

Also Choose religion option does not work with these settings (era option problem?), after few turns you'll get random religion.

Bug in CvUtil.py line 219:

return iBestReligionPercent

Should be quoted out since the rest of the same code block is quoted out...

Excellent mod, keep up the good work!

I show these minor bugs on different lines!
CvEventManager.py line 976 -- minor typo.

CvUtil.py line 214 What error? I could not reproduce an error here.
I wanted the function to return the iBestReligion not the percent.

Respectfully,

Orion Veteran

[zappara]

Taken from Inquisition 2.00a CvUtil.py file:

def getHolyCityReligion(iCity):
		
	for iReligion in range(gc.getNumReligionInfos()):
		# Confirm City is a Holy City and get the religion
		if iCity.isHolyCityByType(iReligion):
			MyHCReligion = iReligion
			break	
	
	return MyHCReligion

#def getBestReligionPercent(self, argsList)
#	iPlayer = argsList
#	pPlayer = gc.getPlayer(iPlayer)
#	iStateReligion = pPlayer.getStateReligion()
#	lReligions = [ ]
#	iBestReligionPercent = 0
#		
#	#Checks religion percents
#	if iStateReligion == -1:
#		iStateReligionPercent = -1
#	else:
#		iStateReligionPercent = gc.getGame().calculateReligionPercent(iStateReligion)
#	for iReligionLoop in range(gc.getNumReligionInfos( )):
#		if iReligionLoop != iStateReligion:
#			if iReligionPercent > iStateReligionPercent:
#				lReligions.append( iReligionLoop )
#				if iReligionPercent > iBestReligionPercent:
#					iBestReligionPercent = iReligionPercent					

	return iBestReligionPercent

def getBestReligionPercent has been quoted out but not the last line "return iBestReligionPercent". So there's no function that would return the best religion percent.

[OrionVeteran]

Originally Posted by zappara

Taken from Inquisition 2.00a CvUtil.py file:

OK, I see now. You are using the obsolete 2.00A version. That problem was found and fixed with version 200B. Please download the latest version to obtain all of the python fixes and improvements to this mod. The only fix not included in version 2.00B is the python error in CvEventManager.py line 976: CvUtil:

Everyone out there should change this:

if iRCount == 7 - CivUtil.CvGetTotalReligionsFounded():

To This:

if iRCount == 7 - CvUtil.CvGetTotalReligionsFounded():

Respectfully,


Orion Veteran