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Old Dec 13, 2008, 01:09 AM   #181
xienwolf
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So what changed for the trait which offered no upkeep for compassion? Just lost that perk, or shifted it to another category?
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Old Dec 13, 2008, 01:51 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by Blakmane View Post
Which is what traditionally mercs have been used for =)
Which is why they have a (albeit small in the game) withdrawal rate.
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Old Dec 13, 2008, 01:52 AM   #183
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Yeah, it seems Expansive got a bit weaker. Compassion was honestly a pretty boring category except for StW and I think it was a good move to get rid of, but Expansive was already a pretty weak trait. Being able to run Public Healers for free was basically the best thing about it unless you had a severe shortage of health resources.
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Old Dec 13, 2008, 01:58 AM   #184
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Yeah, it seems Expansive got a bit weaker. Compassion was honestly a pretty boring category except for StW and I think it was a good move to get rid of, but Expansive was already a pretty weak trait. Being able to run Public Healers for free was basically the best thing about it unless you had a severe shortage of health resources.
The Overcouncil also got a bit less powerful since you can't get use Public Healers without having the tech anymore

But yeah, was a good move to remove those civics. The "you treat your people poorly" bonus you could get from Calabim (or is it only Flauros?) could be achieved from events instead if needed.
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Old Dec 13, 2008, 03:47 AM   #185
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So, Expansive lost it's main bonus.

What about giving it half production cost for settlers? Settlers are quite expensive, so it would be a big advantage. and Expansive leaders would have a big tendency to actually expand.
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Old Dec 13, 2008, 04:00 AM   #186
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What is it with you and removing civic categories? I'm still not completely over the loss of the Education civics. In fact, I might decide to add both categories back in my version.

Regardless, I definitely think that expansive needs to make settlers build faster. I'm thinking it should also give them mobility.
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Old Dec 13, 2008, 04:38 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by Fafnir13 View Post
I'm a little bothered that many things which have been in need of improvement (guilds, late game buildings, and now compassion civic) are just getting the ax. Certainly makes it easier to reach a state of "done" if you just knock out features, but that kind of makes the world less interesting.
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What is it with you and removing civic categories? I'm still not completely over the loss of the Education civics. In fact, I might decide to add both categories back in my version.

Regardless, I definitely think that expansive needs to make settlers build faster. I'm thinking it should also give them mobility.
What exactly is the reasoning behind compassion being removed?

And is there any news on the crime mechanic ever being used again?
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Old Dec 13, 2008, 04:47 AM   #188
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While you're in the code for this release, could you give Loki a Unitclass? I don't know if his lack of Unitclass is intentional, but he's pretty limited right now compared to what he looks like he should be able to do.
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Old Dec 13, 2008, 04:51 AM   #189
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Proposal: Can a lair/dungeon visit always grant some XP for the unit? Even if the effect is negative [unit got poisoned, etc, but does not kill the unit]. This is always an experience with should make the unit wiser and more prepared in the future. Grigori Adventeurers should also get a bonus for exploring lairs, maybe some options never available for other civilisations.

Love the changes so far. It strikes me that there is still much to to Guilds, chained events, hell version of water...
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Old Dec 13, 2008, 06:17 AM   #190
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Thank god, you are going to release this the day after my last final; I might still get an A in Calc II.
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Old Dec 13, 2008, 08:49 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by xienwolf View Post
So what changed for the trait which offered no upkeep for compassion? Just lost that perk, or shifted it to another category?
Looks like Expansive got a +100% Settler production bonus. That's pretty strong. I'm still not sure about eliminating the entire civic category. Was there no way to jazz them up and make them cool rather than cutting them?
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Old Dec 13, 2008, 09:10 AM   #192
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I agree with [NWO] Valis, even if it is just a point of xp.
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Old Dec 13, 2008, 09:13 AM   #193
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If you have played vanilla BTS, you might know that the 50% settler production bonus only affects the real hammers, not the food production. Which don't make it as big of a bonus as it would appear. In the same situation, a settler that would take 25 turns for a normal civ, an imperialistic civ would make it in 20 turns, so the 50% only becomes an actual 25% bonus. But that of course depends on the amount of real hammers you yield.

EDIT: I also agree with [NWO] Valis.
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Old Dec 13, 2008, 09:21 AM   #194
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I also agree with [NWO] Valis.

and I agree with Keeper GFA where he says that mercs should not be able to counter "we fear for our safety and demand military protection" in cities. after all, you don't feel so safe when your city is guarded by some stranger that doesn't care if you get slaughtered as long as he's paid.

oh, and I totally think that recruiting mercs should NOT be limited to the guy who built the wonder, the GoTN should just make purchasins them less expensive. it's a mechanic wayyyyyy too powerful to be limited to a single civ. all other wonders look like crap compared to the guild.
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Old Dec 13, 2008, 09:22 AM   #195
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I like the change to expansive; now it will be useful early game and late game. There might even be a reason to pick it as adaptive now.
I was going to suggest that since public healers & that other civic in compassion category are gone, we should add another building to add health late game. Then I remembered we have infirmaries and I never build them; now I might see them as more important.
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Old Dec 13, 2008, 09:26 AM   #196
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oh, and I totally think that recruiting mercs should NOT be limited to the guy who built the wonder, the GoTN should just make purchasins them less expensive. it's a mechanic wayyyyyy too powerful to be limited to a single civ. all other wonders look like crap compared to the guild.
Hmm, kind of like in Vanilla, once one player builds manhattan project, everyone can build build nukes, once they have the tech, of course.

What about something like this--Reduce the cost of the wonder a bit. Make it allow all players to build mercenaries, which would be like they are now, but be buildable, requiring no building & currency tech. Only mercenaries & Hippus units have the hire mercenaries ability--so once you build one, you can then hire mercenaries whenever that one or any he hires are in a city.
They would still be a way to hire an army quick, but only if you were prepared and had a few on hand already.
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Old Dec 13, 2008, 09:31 AM   #197
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I'd kinda like the ability to be sort of restricted however, like there are only so many mercenaries available in the world.
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Old Dec 13, 2008, 10:02 AM   #198
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Another possibility for the Guild of the Nine would be to make it like the Statue of Zeus or Knights Templar from Civ 3, wonders that produced units every 5 turns. You could have the Guild of the Nine automatically produce a mercenary every 5 turns (or some other number of turns, depending on balance).
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Old Dec 13, 2008, 10:10 AM   #199
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Cool, so almost no benefit from Expansive if you are settled in a floodplains heavy area where popping out settlers is a joke anyway, but a huge benefit if you are slammed with tons of plains/hills and seeking to spread your wings.

All in all, "Excellent Smithers!"
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Old Dec 13, 2008, 11:25 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by Nor'easter View Post
Another possibility for the Guild of the Nine would be to make it like the Statue of Zeus or Knights Templar from Civ 3, wonders that produced units every 5 turns. You could have the Guild of the Nine automatically produce a mercenary every 5 turns (or some other number of turns, depending on balance).
I think people are looking for ways to nerf GotN, not make its construction more of an advantage.
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